                                    ‘July 29 Pinned News’
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Israel – Haredi leaders are warning their congregations against hiking, following two outdoor deaths of yeshiva students, both reported on Vos Iz Neias.
“Don’t be tempted to hike because it’s life-threatening,” Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv and Rabbi Aharon Steinman wrote in a statement meant to be released to the community formally in the upcoming days.
The deaths caused great distress among the haredi community, becoming the main subject of discussion among congregations during the weekend.
“This is just the beginning of the vacation and two yeshiva students have already shortened their lives,” the rabbis wrote in their statement.
The Teshabin Yeshiva in Jerusalem, where Miller had been a student prior to his death, announced they were cutting short the summer vacation and asking students to return to the yeshiva by the end of the week, in the hopes that Torah study would prevent additional tragedies. Several other yeshivas announced that they intended to follow suit. [ynet]
….One reason why Jews are leaving the derech in the last few years is they no longer accept that being slightly different in opinion makes a person a “shaigetz” and they are sick of being called these names. …
You’re right. We have to search our souls good and hard as to why so many cheder children from the late 19th century and on left the derech. With the lure of neo-Enlightenment , children had questions that were probably answered with “shaygetz” , “apikoros” than with geshmake Torah answers. They found excitement in the outside world because we did not imbue the beauty , warmth and excitement of our Jewish heritage. So they left the derech and found excitement elsewhere. It’s ironic that some of the books and literature that were banned at the time, are being read today in yeshiva high school English classes today anyway.
The bottom line is that our Torah is big enough to encompass new , modern and different ways of looking at things. Every generation in the past was modern to the previous one. As long as we adhere to the BASIC halachas , then everybody is correct. Chasidism is a new movement. They were modern at one time also. Let’s not rip into another’s lifestyle just because it’s different from ours.ACHAS DIBER ELOKIM…SHTEYIM ZU SHOMOTEE. 12 shvotim…twelve different minhagim.. Stop bashing ,,,answer with intelligence … don’t be ashamed to say ” I DON’T KNOW.”‘ and for Heaven’s sake stop calling people Kofrim and Shkotzim.
….My Rambam say go to work. It doesn’t say go aerobicise with scantily clad shiksas in the gym, because after all, the Torah way is to be healthy. It says go to work. ……
Listen… We can talk till the cows come home. If you want to quote Rambam , then also quote his reverence for Aristotle and other greek philosophers. He was well read , educated , brilliant and I’m sure he would have endorsed gyms and jogging today sans shikses. But he would have urged yeshivas to let kids play ball. He might have written differently about exercise than he did 800 years ago. Some thing change , you know. Our bodies too. What was true about health once may not be true today. That’s why we pasken like the most achron , achron. Not even like a Rishon.. Not even like a Tannah. “Nuf said.”
You said it!!!
OK I am a frum Yid. But I got tired of constantly listening to attacks on other Jews, even other frum Jews as not being frum enough and then the endless attacks on them. Is that what Torah is about? To always judge fellow Jews NOT L’caf zechus? I thought it was the opposite. Don’t we have something else to talk about besides how “modern” and “this and that” is a goy a shaygitz, an apikorus and on and on and on. It is so tiring and boring to listen to.
YU graduated are exemplary Jews. For the most part they do not exibit the neurotic and pathological tendencies that many chareidim do.
I have never heard YU people make a public chillul Hashem .
>Anonymous 9:31
>Regarding what type and how
>much exercise one needs, the >Torah approach is to rely on the advice of the experts. The Rambam defined exercise as “vigorous or gentle movement, or a combination of the two, which increases one’s breathing rate.”
Exactly where does it say that? My Rambam say go to work. It doesn’t say go aerobicise with scantily clad shiksas in the gym, because after all, the Torah way is to be healthy. It says go to work.
הלכןת דעות פרק ד:ב
לא יאכל אדם עד שילך קודם אכילה עד שיתחיל גופו לחום או יעשה מלאכתו או יתיגע ביגע אחר כללו של דבר יענה גופו וייגע כל יום בבקר עד שיתחיל גופו לחום וישקוט מעט עד שתתישב נפשו ואוכל
יד
וועד כלל אחר אמרו בבריאות הגוף כל זמן שאדם מתעמל ויגע הרבה ואינו שבע ומעיו רפין אין חולי בא עליו וכחו מתחזק ואפילו אוכל מאכלות הרעים:
….But when you have a different opinion from chazal or shulchan orech you have already left the derech and when i quote the rambam’s definition for someone who already left the derech, even though he’s a musmaoch (l’havdil) from YU, if he thinks it’s perfectly alright to go to Goyish movies and watch arayos, and he can have a girlfriend and date since he’s twelve but not … BLAH…BLAH …BLAH
YU mismochim don’t gazel the government with phoney programs and IDs. YU mismochim are tzu GOT and tzu Leit… They are not found in Botei Zonos , and have never made a chillul Hashem B’rabim like you know who.
>Anonymous 9:26 AM
>One reason why Jews are leaving >the derech in the last few years >is they no longer accept that >being slightly different in >opinion makes a person >a “shaigetz” and they are sick of >being called these names.
You are entitled to have a different opinion than me. I’m nobody. But when you have a different opinion from chazal or shulchan orech you have already left the derech and when i quote the rambam’s definition for someone who already left the derech, even though he’s a musmaoch (l’havdil) from YU, if he thinks it’s perfectly alright to go to Goyish movies and watch arayos, and he can have a girlfriend and date since he’s twelve but not to get married until he’s forty, and the only shiur that’s he makpid on according to the Chazon Ish is the tefach that his wife’s hair is uncovered, and his daughters can dress like like celebrity pop star sluts because that’s “Minhag hamakom”, then he is an Am ha’aretz, an apikorus, and a shaigetz and would have been called such in every generation over the last three thousand years except the present one.
On exercise the Rambam says, “As long as a person exercises and exerts himself…sickness does not befall him and his strength increases…. But one who is idle and does not exercise…even if he eats healthy foods and maintains healthy habits, all his days will be of ailment and his strength will diminish.” If this is so regarding the era of the Rambam when even daily life was physically demanding, all the more so in our times when technological progress “spares” us much exertion.
Regarding what type and how much exercise one needs, the Torah approach is to rely on the advice of the experts. The Rambam defined exercise as “vigorous or gentle movement, or a combination of the two, which increases one’s breathing rate.” Interestingly, this is exactly the type of cardiovascular exercise advised by modern medicine like walking, jogging, dancing, biking, or swimming for 30 minutes at least three times a week.
to anon. 8:19 and 8:31. I see you are a very holy person who is an expert at calling other jews “goyim” “apikorsum” “shaigetz” and so on. You must be a big talmid chachum to be able to call your fellow jews such names.
One reason why Jews are leaving the derech in the last few years is they no longer accept that being slightly different in opinion makes a person a “shaigetz” and they are sick of being called these names.
3:52. You can be Machshiv Kollel all you want. Then see where to get the money for food, rent, insurance, tuition, utilities, camp, etc, etc.
July 29, 2007 11:03 PM
You go to work!! Or go into Business!!! After learning in Kollel!!!
Like I said Kollel is a strugle – not for everyone!!!
…..Had the gemorah known that your children needed to go swimming so desperately that they disregard all the prohibitions about yeharag v’alyavor and go mixed swimming, they certainly would have prohibited it in totality. …..
HAD THE GEMORAH KNOWN..????
WHY YOU ARE ON THE INTERNET WHICH ACCORDING SOME IS ALSO YEHARAG V’ALYAVOR… ??????????
>Anonymous said… 8:35 AM
>The gemarah is using swimming
>as an example. Why not just
>asser swimming pools and we >wouldn’t need this gemorah at >all. Why doesn’t the gemorah
>justtell fathers to forbid
>their children to swim >altogether?
Had the gemorah known that your children needed to go swimming so desperately that they disregard all the prohibitions about yeharag v’alyavor and go mixed swimming, they certainly would have prohibited it in totality.
The gemara says a parent should teach their child how to swim and a trade. You of course, being much smarter than the gemara know a parent much teach their child hiking skills. And what else?
The gemarah is using swimming as an example. Why not just asser swimming pools and we wouldn’t need this gemorah at all. Why doesn’t the gemorah just tell fathers to forbid their children to swim altogether?
“Dr. Amar Hussein, the director of the emergency room at Ziv Hospital, urged Israeli citizens on Friday to refrain from hiking in the unusually hot weather because of the serious danger of dehydration.”
The Rabbis were just following medical advice.
>Anonymous said… 3:11 PM
>let the kids have some >outlets…a gymnasium, exercise >regiment, health classes, >instruction in sports. This will >build both body strength and >character strength.
Spoken like a true goy!
Exactly how does this build character more than learning mesilos yeshorim or a shiur on midos? Because that’s what the Goy said in the boyscout commercial? “Come hiking and build character!”? There is a “frum” element here that is so Helenized
that they think Secular Goyish lifestyle is Toiras Moishe. Tzi’ie bi’ikvay hatzoan. Look at what Jews did for three thousand years, not at what Goyim do today.
>Anonymous 10:36
>call for a ban on rabbis making >stupid comments !
The Rambam’s definition of “Apikoris” is one who is mevazeh Talmidei Chachamim. (Pirush hamishniyos -chalek)
The chofetz Chaim wrote that reading a newspaper was bittul Toirah (Zachor l’Miriam chap 23[?]) I’m sure he would say hiking is in the same category.
>Anonymous 10:44
>wow how uterly brilliant, instead >of teaching the buchrim how to >hike and survive in the >wilderness, just ban it,
The gemara says a parent should teach their child how to swim and a trade. You of course, being much smarter than the gemara know a parent much teach their child hiking skills. And what else? Basketball? Bungee jumping? Break dancing? Ice hockey with full body checking? After all, a person has to be prepared for the modern world, right?
Expatriate Owl said-
How about driving or riding in an automobile?
THe number one cause of death for young white Americans between the age of 16 and 25 is car accidents. (CDC) The number one cause of Death of Black Americans of the same age is gunshot and knife wounds.(CDC) Of course in order to reduce the number of deaths by gunshot and knife wounds as well as in the name of equity, liberals have suggested buying more cars for young black men. The question is, will this lower the amount of deaths by gunshot wounds, or raise the amount of drive by shootings?
>Shocked.. said…
>Shame on You-All of You!!!
Thank you. I’m glad to see there is at least one normal person here.
>Anonymous said 2:51 AM
>I dont believe our gedolim ever >banned hiking this is just the >nonsense spokemen who misquote >words of greatness.
In the days prior to the American “need to have fun”, before “entertainment” became synonymous with wasting time, and when bittle toirah actually meant something, people did not waste 80%+ of their time as they do today. People such as the Chofetz Chaim, Reb Moshe Feinstein, R’Yaakov Kamenetsky, The Lubavitcher Rebbe, The Klausenberger Rebbe, the Satmar Rebbe, Kulom ZT”L made it into their nineties without ever having played basketball. that is why they were of their caliber and you are an Am ha’aretz.
>Anonymous 5:16 AM
> I saw a statistic the other day >that nearly a third of “orthodox” >people over the age of 30 are >single.
>….This is a tragedy resulting >from the policy of encouraging >yingerman to learn after marriage >and expect to be supported by >a “gvir” father in law.
The main reason why many of these people, specifcally modern orthodox are single, is becauser they have embraced the “secular world” i.e., Goyish Culture and goyish values. This is undeniable when modern orthodox marriage ages mirror that of Johnny Shaigotz in the population at large. Because a career and “advancement” take a back seat to shulchan orech. In fact the “shidduch crisis” is amongst the major testimony to the failure of modern orthodoxy. As far as Lakewood is concerned you are half right. There is nothing wrong with sitting and learning. Expecting your father-in-law to enslave himself to support you is disgusting. this does not happen in most chassidish households where the parents help if they can, and if they can’t, she teaches, he teaches or drives a truck. I personally have a chavrusa who’s parents turned down million dollar shidduchim, because they wanted Toirah and not money.
>Anonymous 5:28
>the Rambam, most famously, wrote >that a Jew should take excercise >regularly.
Please remind where the Rambam says this. Most of what the Rambam says In Hilchos Daos chap 4, is about eating properly. This should be co-ordinated with work. Running around in circles may warm the body and break a sweat, but this certainly not what the Rambam is advocating, especially when you compare it to his list in Pairush hamishnios (chalek), of what constitutes bittul Toirah.
the boys should get drivers education in yeshiva, chamira sekanta m’isirah.
the bochurim need more time for excercise and gym. so when they get a break from yeshiva, they wont be like a tinok haboreach. only like a mature teenager who gets a break from their studies.
I just want to add my opinion that all this extreme behavior and extreme opinion (such as the psak that Slifkin should burn his writings) is going to lead many people to abandon the derech.
Instead of banning everything in sight, how about the yeshivas get some programs in place to educate our children to have common sense. No, that’s too logical and therefore won’t happen. Why does everything in our community have to be so extreme?
3:52. You can be Machshiv Kollel all you want. Then see where to get the money for food, rent, insurance, tuition, utilities, camp, etc, etc.
LET’S BAN DRIVING. FAR MORE PEOPLE, INCLUDING YESHIVA BOCHURIM, HAVE BEEN KILLED OR MAIMED WHILE DRIVING
I just heard that in the next few days a ban will be coming out by some BIG rabbonim in EY and in America that marrriages will be banned because the divorce rate is very high and even higher among kollel couples . If you plan on getting married soon then chap arein before the ban comes into full force.
Young pishers are telling shadchans that they demand 10 years from a prospective father-in-law to sit and learn.
They’re getting these ideas from someplace. This is wrong. Our biggest gedolim years ago had a parnassah to suppplement their Torah teaching.
Girls are being brainwashed into looking for just such boys.
Not everybody is cut out for this type of life.
So the girls go to college , where boys are are assered to go , to become PT’s OT’s nurses , etc. to support their husbands. In other words , the Akeres Habayis , the one who should be home with the children is going into a treifeneh workplace in many cases , to support a learner.
Many times she works in offices with other men , which seems to be ok , so long as she supports Torah. I don’t get it.
“OLEM HOFECH RO’EESSEE.”!
Hey , if learning is so important , then let these healthy , young Pishers support old -geezers like me so I can sit and learn. The Torah was given to us too , NO.?
No one decries those who sit and learn but we must face reality. There is a crisis. Do not blame it on wanting olam hazeh and olam haba. A Jew is supposed to have both! A few kids in yeshivot can easily cost $40,000 per year! That is the reality. After that there is the cost of food, home, clothing, insurance, transportation, and so on. The reason there is a shidduch crisis is that rabbonim tell boys to marry “rich” and there are not enough rich fathers in law to go around. Go one generation and those who have sat and learned are far from rich and the reality is the bochurim are not marrying their daughters so the girls are single into their 30’s nebach.
if i hear a REAL LIVE transcript of the was the seila was presented and the answers given by these rabbonim then we can begin to do something but untill then its all hearsay by some kannoim.
…already the pendulum is swinging. I saw a statistic the other day that nearly a third of of “orthodox” people over the age of 30 are single. I know many single girls in Lakewood can not find a shidduch becuase their fathers have been “sitting and learning” and have never earned an income. No one wants to marry their daughters! This is a tragedy resulting from the policy of encouraging yingerman to learn after marriage and expect to be supported by a “gvir” father in law. This system can not work for everyone and is already starting to cause shalom bayis problems, more than we admit in the frum community. If you don’t believe me, ask some social workers in the yeshivishe velt what is going on. The bottom line is that we have forgotten that for many many people, the lack of basic preparation for life is having long term consquences that common sense would have anticipated. The Mishna says a father has to teach his son how to swim. What is this to swim? To keep his head above water in life….a profession, a parnassah…a chiuv for the father.
July 29, 2007 5:16 AM
WRONG!!
The problem is that in America 2007 everyone wants to have it all, olam hazeh and olam haboh. If the bochrim would want girls who knew how to struggle for Torah and not be guaranteed $50000/year by their shver – there would be no shidduch crisis in Lakewood!!
That is the problem!!
If klal yisroel was machshiv kollel – these men should be given a living wage too!!!
Yes – kollel life is not for everyone – just as an immigrant who receives scholarships to the top schools of America to become a Philosopher or a Scientist is entitled in our Malchus shel Chesed to feed his family with Food Stamps what is the shame for Kollel Yungeleit??
Again – kollel life is not for everyone ….
But dont decry the the few the proud ehrliche yungerman who with is wife and family is moser nefesh for Torah!!!
the point is that everyone needs to see including the Rabbi’s is that kids will be kids regardless of how frum they are…..They are kids…Bottom line
I agree with the person who wants to add some physical education to the yeshiva curriculum. let the kids have some outlets…a gymnasium, exercise regiment, health classes, instruction in sports. This will build both body strength and character strength.
Just because you tremble, you don’t decide to lock them away.
part of being a responsible parent and grandparent is to realize one’s own limitaions and to not feel the need to meddle in everything your kids want to do.
TO Anonymous 2:07 PM
I’m not disagreeing with you at all. I’m only explaining what I think is the reason for the Rabbonim’s statement.
I’m a parent and grandparent and you always tremble for them. Absolutely they need outlets which many yeshivas frown upon. But that’s another can of worms.
Dear Anonymous 11:47,
Let’s accept your moshol, that the yeshiva Rabbeim care about their talmidim, just as parents do.
A good parent sees his role as teaching his children the life skills and common sense needed to become independant.
If we don’t understand something (like how to keep our kids safe on hiking trips), we speak to people who have experience with outdoor activities and seek expert advice.
We also realize that our children need outlets. Once we speak to experts, we find out how to provide those outlets in a safe and sensible fashion.
my parents were hesitant but it didn’t mean they had to BAN it. I think this should be left up to the individual…
Honestly I could walk in the street and get hit by a car… That doesn’t stop ppl from driving. First of all everything is plain and simple..it is called COMMON SENSE.
While a lot of what’s being posted here about precautions are true,this is a case of overprotection. The Rabbonim feel for their talmidim very much. Much like overprotective parents who refuse to allow thier children to do certain activities. Be fair now… how many of you who have teenagers were very , very hesitant to allow them to drive for the first time.
Someone had asked what type of person would go on a long hike despite the fact that it’s 11 degrees outside?
The answer: Someone who’s desperate to get out and have some healthy fun, freedom, and physical activity.
That’s why calling the bochurim back to prison is such a bad idea.
(Yes, I realize that boys locked away in the Beis Midrash are less likely to die in hiking accidents. However, more of them might take up smoking, to relieve their stress that has no other outlet).
Instead, give everyone a 60-minute explanation about the basics of physiology, health, and safety.
Anonymous 10:06:
Good concept, EXCEPT:
If you aren’t allowed to drive before marriage, wouldn’t that impair your ability to date?
You seem to be resolving the sakanah problem at the cost of exacerbating the shidduch crisis.
Otherwise, you have some very valid observations and food for thought.
Far be it from me to critize the Gedolim, Shlita, but many many more people die daily from smoking than die the whole bein hazmanim from accidents, R”L.
It would seem prudent to me to ban smoking in all places and in all circumstances first.
Driving like fools second, (perhaps a ban on driving before marriage or a specified age).
And then discuss hiking, which can be quite safe if done with proper equipment and sufficient water.
I am getting off topic but let us start her;
Those that support yeshivas with charity should dmeand the Yeshiva have a healthy life style including
a, NO SMOKING
b, An organized, frum program to introduce some physical activity and individual excercise.
while I can say I do not understand the reasons for assering hiking I must stress the dangers are there and the average Yeshiva boy, even Israeli, needs to learn about hiking and not just do it. The amount of water needed is so great that you can not imgine. I got dehydrated years ago while spending the entire day in or around an air conditioned Hotel in Yerushalayim. I thought I was thirsty but could wait till Kidush Friday night. I realized I was in trouble and drank a 1/2 liter cola before kidush but that did not help. An Arab working in the dining room said I looked sick and called security. Security decided I would first drink 2 liters of water and if that would not help I would be transported to a Hospital. About 5 minutes after the 2 liters I suddenly felt fine.
People should know that;
1, pure water may not be the best thing but it helped in my case. Cola may have better minerals, ask a MD.
2, Once you get dehydrated you also could get disoriented or nauseated, there could be a quick downward spiral.
Right. And it ain’t no system. It’s broke. Time the businessmen who fund yeshivas open their mouths and put the money there. Run the yeshivas correctly with seichel so the kids turn out like mentchen, able to fend for themselves in this world. Not be dependent on others.
I don’t think that people are criticizing the bochurim here. What they are criticizing is a SYSTEM that seems to be incapable of preparing young men to use common sense, discretion, and basic knowledge as a way of making decisions.
anon. 2:06 AM. I agree that we should have peace between all b’nei Yisroel. However, that does not mean that we should stop thinking or stop having opinions about matters that affect the klal. It is not a question of looking down or up as you put it. It is a question of observing what is going on around us. I see thousands of b’nei Torah living on welfare and food stamps. I do not believe that this is the right approach, to become dependent on the government for hand outs. I see schnorring everywhere I go and fathers who can not afford to marry off their daughters after sitting in Lakewood for 30 years. And I don’t see bochurim clamoring to marry the daughters of these talemedie chachamim who don’t have a parnassah. Just sweeping these problems under the rug will not solve them. Living life in this manner is like going for a demanding hike dressed in a black suit and leather shoes.
If the bochurim had a little education on what to think about a hike and how to avoid the dangers then you wouldn’t need a ban now. Look at the yeshiva boys of today, they are either obese or skinny as rails. Many are bent over like old men. They are weak. They have no idea about physical fitness. They have no knowledge of how to approach things such as a hike. They have no common sense not to hike in extreme weather because no one taught them becaus such knowledge is considered “bitul z’man” (waste of time.) Yet it is not bitul z’man to learn safety and to keep in good shape. the Rambam, most famously, wrote that a Jew should take excercise regularly. In today’s world boys and girls need excercise and physical education and to be prepared and knowledgable of what the body requires in different circumstances. Showing up for a hike in extreme weather dressed in black clothes and leather shoes and with no knowledge of how a body dehydrates, no knowledge of how a body becomes fatigued and no prior physical conditioning is just ignorant and DANGEROUS behavior, like driving drunk on Purim or playing with a loaded gun and not understanding how a gun works. This is all due to lack of education and practical experience and it can have tragic consequences as we now see. Hashem should bring nechama to the families and klal Yisroel should never again know such tragedies.
Certainly hiking in 125 degree heat is not smart. That type of hiking is for experienced hikers only, who are in great physical shape and who are prepared with the correct clothing and equipment for such an environment. Actually an EXPERIENCED hiker would know not to attempt to hike in such weather. The Yeshiva bochurim simply lacked the basic education to recognize that hiking under such conditions is dangerous. They did not recognize danger!
The Roshei Yeshivot are correct to ban hiking in such extreme weather. But is that what the ban is? Or is it a total ban on ALL hiking at all times going forward? I believe it is a total ban on hiking, a blanket ban as stringent as the ban on watching television. I think that is the issue here…that the way these problems are handled usually is to pronounce an issur on whatever activity has resulted in a tragedy. The bloggers here are just making the point that it might make more sense to actually educate the bochurim about basic safety and health issues, as is done in the non-chareidi schools. Education can prevent some tragedies.
And I agree with ANON 12:35…already the pendulum is swinging. I saw a statistic the other day that nearly a third of of “orthodox” people over the age of 30 are single. I know many single girls in Lakewood can not find a shidduch becuase their fathers have been “sitting and learning” and have never earned an income. No one wants to marry their daughters! This is a tragedy resulting from the policy of encouraging yingerman to learn after marriage and expect to be supported by a “gvir” father in law. This system can not work for everyone and is already starting to cause shalom bayis problems, more than we admit in the frum community. If you don’t believe me, ask some social workers in the yeshivishe velt what is going on. The bottom line is that we have forgotten that for many many people, the lack of basic preparation for life is having long term consquences that common sense would have anticipated. The Mishna says a father has to teach his son how to swim. What is this to swim? To keep his head above water in life….a profession, a parnassah…a chiuv for the father.
#1 It was a great idea to walk through Chevron 25 years ago, the bad thing was that more of us did not settle there.
Quite a difference bt the dr. who said, REFRAIN from hiking and banning hiking, changing bein hazmanim etc. I dont believe our gedolim ever banned hiking this is just the nonsense spokemen who misquote words of greatness.
ANON 130
You ever heard of YU???
A Eropean born Rebbe in YU told bochrim 30 years ago to forget exercising ( remember jogging?) but be careful what goes into our mouths before dealing with the problem of what is around our waist!
Also, did you ever visit the State parks in NJ or NY on Chol Hamoed or Bein Hazmanim, or the Summer Camps in the Catskills or Poconos?
They are full of Yeshiva Bochrim getting the physical exercise and the physical outlets. Dont complain when you only need to open your eyes.
Some bochrim forget to take water we are all bashing the Rosh Yeshivas??? kids will be kids and make stupid (and sometimes fatal) mistakes!!!
Maybe, even if they went with enough water and maps etc – the hiking in 125 degrees is not something that should be done!!
I shudder as I remember some 25 years ago the stupid things American bochrim did in EY during Bein Hazmanim (walking through Chevron….misreading maps.. etc)
Either way, now we have a heter to bash the Frum approach to life (ANON 1235) for learning past marriage????
Yes this yungerman will NOT have shalom bayis problems because he and his wife will work out these problems as any loving couple does when any family of any type (Chasidish, Litvish, Modern Orthodox or whatever) is confronted with any problem does… They deal with it!!! If they cannot deal with it, then any problem would be a major Shalom Bayis issue even if Mon came from the Heavens!!
Further ANON 1235, this attack against the Chareidi/Frum families approach of learning after marriage is nothing new as I heard it 25 years ago and the sky has not fallen or will ever fall!! When the going gets tough the Tough get going and doing whatever that has got to be done. Whatever each individual believes he will do for his own hishtadlus for his kesuvah and children!
If you do not subscribe to this approach I say Live and Let Live. I dont look down or up to you and you should not feel any different to me . As they say Different strokes for different folks and lets perserve, however fragile, the shalom amongst us all.
It’s so sad that everyone is in agreement here as I am. Even the typical middle of the road Brooklyn yeshiva my son attends doesn’t stress the importance of physical education and activities. (That would be the Hebrew Dept.) Has anyone ever seen so many out of shape weak teenagers?? There is no move at all to teach how to live like a mentch and maybe get out and enjoy nature like G-d made it to be.