Melbourne, Australia – KOSHER foods made in South Australia and sold nationally and overseas have been given the all-clear by rabbinic authorities, despite a major breakdown in Adelaide’s kashrut supervision over the past eight years.
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At least three kosher-approved South Australian products listed in the Kosher Australia Food Bulletin 2007 (5767-8) have been made without rabbinic oversight for extended periods.
The manufacturers of Beerenberg jams, B-D Farm yoghurts, and breads baked at Baker’s Delight in Frewville, SA, say that Adelaide’s kosher supervisor (mashgiach), Rabbi Yossi Engel, had not visited for between three and eight years.
Kosher Australia (KA) has been aware of the problem since at least April, when Adelaide Hebrew Congregation (AHC) and kosher consumers discovered the lapses after contacting producers.
The revelations come on top of the year long row between Rabbi Engel and AHC, and a police probe into allegations of government fraud at an Adelaide school which allegedly gave phantom Hebrew lessons.
Senior rabbis in Melbourne and secular community leaders have been trying to head off the crisis for at least three months, the AJN understands.
Together with KA and the Sydney Beth Din, which has religious jurisdiction over Adelaide’s Jewish community, they were warned in a confidential memo in late April that it had “the ability to destroy the Australian Jewish community and its reputation”.
The scandal has already drawn in religious authorities overseas, with the London Beth Din set to arbitrate the dispute – despite South Australian courts backing the synagogue’s bid to sever ties with Rabbi Engel under civil law, rather than Jewish halacha. [ajn]
The last writer claims that the products were never under hechsher, just ‘approved’. That is not so. For example, Beerenberg jams had an annual hechsher certificate for 1999-2000, which I have seen.
Kosher Australia, which is a choshuv hechsher (the only Australian hechsher that is a member of AKO) assessed the situation at the time, questioned the Rabbi closely (the products were under his supervision, not Kosher Australia’s and this point is missed) and were comfortable to continue listing these products. The conflict between Rabbi Engel and his shule is now the subject of a Din Torah – the shule warned him that they would ‘bury’ him and his credibility.
Note re kashrus in Australia, just like England, there are products under hechsher and those informally approved for the use of the Kehillos’ for which no money is charged and is usually done so that people have what to eat.
These products were never under hechsher – just ‘approved’.
PS. There are shittos (see Shach 112:10 & Aruch HaShulchan) that yoghurt is the same geder as butter and not subject to cholov yisroel. That does not mean that no investigation is needed. Butter must also be checked as whey cream is commonly used as well as flavors & other additives.
PPS. Without Chabad, kashrus worldwide would not exist.
I know the Engels too. They will not use the milk either. They keep a fleishig home and on rare occasions have Halav Yisroel products such as yoghurt or cheese brought from Melbourne (say for cheesecake at Shavuot). The kids were brought up on soy milk not real milk.
I don’t recommend that.
To Anonymous 2 August 11.48am. I know Engel personally. I have sat in his home and have helped his wife cook in the kitchen. I can tell you, they WILL NOT use the cream here in South Australia. For them, our cream is not kosher. Goodness gracious! The point is being missed here.
Yogurt can only be made from Kosher dairy and therefore does not require supervision anyway.
————————
Not correct. I know for a fact that yogurt can be and is made with horse’s milk in Central Asia and by Central Asians in European Russia. Would not surprise me to find such yogurt in Brooklyn Russian groceries.
You are probably thinking of butter and some hard cheeses.
without lubavitchers there wouldn;t be a need for hasgochas at all!
to the blogger himself….take away the sinase chinom…..chassidim al haelunaha
responding to anon 3:09
Maybe you haven’t noticed but the reality (metzius) of the world has changed a little in the last 150 years.
Everything has changed for example the manufacture of butter. It used to be poshut that butter didn’t need a hashgocha or even be cholov yisroel (for those who are makpid) but the reality has changed in the way the large corporations manufacturre their butter and now it absolutely needs a hechsher. The smallest farm today make more dairy
products than 10 large ones 150 years ago.
That is why “in der heim” there was no need for hashgochos and now there is a definite need for them.
anon: August 2, 2007 10:12 AM
i’m not a lubab but i can tell you,
You must be a real bitter soul if you can write like that
bottom line when your family is in REAL need of help somewere out of town the ONLT one outthere to help you is chabad
Who gave all these ‘necessary’ hashgachos 150 years ago? When a poor peddler went selling merchandise from town-to-town he did not always have all culinary provisions, he’d buy some in the local markets. Today that peddler would be considered conservative at best and totally irreligious at worst.
Reply to 10:12 am
The Bais HaMikdash was destroyed for Sinas Chinam, you comment is full of Sinas Chinam.
Shame on you.
Anon at 11:48
Just to respond to a few of your points,
1)Stabilizers, fruit flavors, and colors may be added to the yogurt.” — None need Hashgacha ever. They are not considered “food.”— flavors and colors need hashgacha, and are not batel b’shishim if they are noticable
2)Stabilizers, to make yogurt thicker, can be from gelatin, from bones and hives of non-kosher animals.” is not a food product and doesn’t need Hashgacha. Gelatin is used in Israel and England and considered kosher.— most kashrus agencies in the US and Israel do not use gelatin as per psak of Rav Moshe
3)”Red coloring can have carmine from beetles.” Crushed bugs are not a prohibition.— Crushed bugs are prohibited unless they are batul and if they are noticed they are not batul.
4)”Storage tanks could have been used for non-kosher yogurt that could have been held for twenty-four hours or more.” — no such concept. Storage tanks that aren’t cooked in can never obtain a nonkosher status that can be passed on to the ingredients.—there is such a concept, see Y.D. siman 91 and 105, and even if it is mutar b’diaved it should not be done l’chatchilah.
I think that the OU does know halachah,
to 10:03 and 11:48
you have proven the well known saying that “a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing”
You may have some very basic concepts in yoreh deah but display an amazaing amount of ignorance in practically applying these rules.
non-fat dry milk does in fact need hashgocha to supervise the drying process
cultures are not animals and how they are nourished does matter according to the halocha
Stabilizers, fruit flavors, and colors always need hashgoch in these days because of the various complexities of the modern food industry.
whey and cream need hashgocha because of the eay they are processed. SO too does butter. You are basing your statements on the facts of 50 years ago. The reality of the industry has changed and these products now absolutely need hasgocha.
You stated “even if it was, it is not cooked and surely is less than 1/60th” On what do you base this “surely” Are you involvced in hasgocha and have checked out the metzius? How can you make such a statement based on your own assumptions.
gelatin made from non-kosher hids and bones is considered by the vast majority of poskim NOT KOSHER. There is a 1 opinion (Rav Y E Spektor) who allows it and no major world-wide heshgocha relies on this leniency. Even if ther are a few small hasgochas which do rely on it, they are in the vast minority.
You commented on this statement >>”Stabilizers from starch or gums can be processed on non-kosher equipment or have traces of gelatin if not properly certified.” No such concept in Halacha.<< A machine which processed not kosher ingredients must be kashered before it can be used for kosher. i.e. removing the issur. crushed bugs are ossur to put in your food. Products made from grapes contain grape juice which must be dealt with like wine thereby requiring frum people to do the work.
My point is you are basing you statements on bedieveds and minority leniencies. Please tell me which hashgochos you rely on so that I will no to avoid them.
BTW the OU is an example of how a hashgocha should be run. Because no one individual person loses a paycheck if a hashgocha needs to be pulled.
Go and learn some PRACTICAL HALOCHA.
AMEN
Responding to :
“Cream or non-fat dry milk may be added to yogurt” — Both are kosher
“Stabilizers, fruit flavors, and colors may be added to the yogurt.” — None need Hashgacha ever. They are not considered “food.”
“Cultures are grown on labs – on non-koshers surfaces” — there is no such concept in Halacha
“or are nourished with non-kosher nutrients.” — are you saying Chickens aren’t kosher because they eat bugs? How cultures are nourished is irrelevant.
“Some cream is from whey, which is from cheese-milking or share equipment used for non-kosher whey cream.” — There is no such thing as unkosher cream. Just like butter…it doesn’t need Hashgacha.
“Non-fat dry milk can be dried in spray driers used non-kosher meat, cheese,etc.” — even if it was, it is not cooked and surely is less than 1/60th
“Stabilizers, to make yogurt thicker, can be from gelatin, from bones and hives of non-kosher animals.” is not a food product and doesn’t need Hashgacha. Gelatin is used in Israel and England and considered kosher.
“Stabilizers from starch or gums can be processed on non-kosher equipment or have traces of gelatin if not properly certified.” No such concept in Halacha.
“Red coloring can have carmine from beetles.” Crushed bugs are not a prohibition.
“Non-kosher grape derivitaves can be in flavors and the equipment may not be kosher.” — There is no such thing as an unkosher grape.
“The pasteurizing equipment may have been used for non-kosher yogurt.” — There is no such thing as unkosher yogurt.
“Storage tanks could have been used for non-kosher yogurt that could have been held for twenty-four hours or more.” — no such concept. Storage tanks that aren’t cooked in can never obtain a nonkosher status that can be passed on to the ingredients.
“Even if a system is automated, a mashgiach must verify that kosher guidelines are followed. (from ou-radio.org.)” — The OU might say so, but Halacha does not. The OU isn’t a “kosher witness” in this discussion since it is their business to make money by providing Hasgacha. They are not neutral/objective.
Go learn some Halacha.
its starts by finkel ends in australia the bottom line its sad that we cant trust each other.
you hire a mashgiach you trust him with your life you are putting food in your mouth that he says is kosher we give that food for tinoikes shel bais raban that learn toirah and their heads get farshtupt with chazer traif and bugs nice very nice ……..
and to the smart comment
“The Shulchan Aruch does not state how often a place should be visited.”
let me tell you what the shulchan aruch states “BE HONEST” do your job you were hired to be a mashgiach not a kniving thief
Cream or non-fat dry milk may be added to yogurt. Stabilizers, fruit flavors, and colors may be added to the yogurt. Cultures are grown on labs – on non-koshers surfaces or are nourished with non-kosher nutrients. Some cream is from whey, which is from cheese-milking or share equipment used for non-kosher whey cream. Non-fat dry milk can be dried in spray driers used non-kosher meat, cheese,etc. Stabilizers, to make yogurt thicker, can be from gelatin, from bones and hives of non-kosher animals. Stabilizers from starch or gums can be processed on non-kosher equipment or have traces of gelatin if not properly certified. Red coloring can have carmine from beetles. Non-kosher grape derivitaves can be in flavors and the equipment may not be kosher. The pasteurizing equipment may have been used for non-kosher yogurt. Storage tanks could have been used for non-kosher yogurt that could have been held for twenty-four hours or more. Even if a system is automated, a mashgiach must verify that kosher guidelines are followed. (from ou-radio.org.)
REPLY TO THE 1’ST COMMENT: sorry to tell you, but you are completly out of your mind & you have no idea in kashras, do you know that jam is made from over 150 ingredients! every ingredient what you see on the jar is made from 10 other ingredients, go & contact your KASHRAS MASHGIACH and he will give you some idea in kashras
.
see what happens when you hire a Lubab to do your hashgochas and to be a rabbi? he never does the job and then commits fraud just to support his lifestyle
The Shulchan Aruch does not state how often a place should be visited.
Yogurt can only be made from Kosher dairy and therefore does not require supervision anyway.
With bread you can rely on the gentile to tell the truth about the ingredients, so that is a non-issue.
Jam is fruit and sugar. It does not require hashgacha to begin with.