New York, NY – A joke that aired on a Fox television suggesting that Poles are Nazi collaborators has enraged some Polish Americans. They are calling for the owner of Fox, Rupert Murdoch, to apologize.
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The chairman of the Polish American Congress’s anti-bigotry committee, Frank Milewski, said he wrote a letter in response to the episode calling on Mr. Murdoch to meet with Polish who survived Nazi concentration camps and Poles who have been honored by Israel for rescuing Jews during the Holocaust.
“We can’t figure out why someone would make such a statement,” Mr. Milewski said, calling the remarks a “fraud of history.” “People are very upset,” he said. In a statement, the Fox Broadcasting Network apologized to “any viewers who may have been offended.” [nysun]
I knew it. Scratch the surface of a Holocaust denier and you will find a Holocaust apologist.
Check Mate.
Now that I have succeeded in exposing you for what you are there is little reason to continue this correspondance.
Go crawl back to your trailer park and mourn the survival of the 300,000 Polish Jews you didn’t get to send up the smoke stack.
FWIW, I do find your jealousy of us rather entertaining.
For two thousand years your kind has attempted to wipe us from the face of G-d’s earth. It looks like He has plans of his own and He hasn’t taken your plans into consideration.
AM YISRAEL CHAI!
VIN Editor: as I suggested he would earlier, this putz has certainly enlightened anyone who is still following this topic.
He has, in a nutshell, justified the slaughter of 6,000,000 of us, including 1,500,000 children because they didn’t like our politics and attitude.
Please consider moving it back up so all your readers can see for themselves that Polish mother’s breast milk is still fortified with anti-Semitism and blood-lust.
This a lesson none of the younger generations can afford to forget.
Since you claim yourself to being “so academic” – that is akin to being “scientific.” Science, specifically physics, subscribes to the laws of “cause and effect,” “action and reaction.” If we premise that, after centuries of providing Jews with safe haven, tolerance, protection under the law, opportunity, and religious freedom, Poles have become anti-Semites, what actions did the Jews perpetrate upon the Poles to bring on the reaction of anti-Semitism to any degree? Was it the smug chutzpah of your wealthy class who got rich being usurers and, later, traitors who favored Russians and Germans for 123 years of Poland’s partition???
Answer this question, dear grandson of Polish Jews!!!!!
1) Your numbers are wrong
2) Your jumping from using (incorrect) numbers to using propaganda terms like ‘so many’ makes any discussion with you regarding statitics and demographics unacceptably unacademic.
3) There has been of late a esurgance of ‘Jewish culture’ in the homeland of anti-Semitism, true, but there are so few Jews left there that they have had to train non-Jewish Klezmer players!
Dear Grandson of Polish Jews:
The 1939 population of Poland was just over 34 million citizens, not 28 million. Based on a 1946 census, it was calculated that less than 26 million Polish citizens were let surviving on Polish territory making the wartime population loss rate at about 264 persons per 1,000 – the greatest per capita civilian and military death and deportation losses of any state involved in the war.
Yes, figures do lie when they are pulled out of sleeves for propaganda purposes!!! Those figures are usually figured out by liars!
Fast forward to Poland of today: suddenly, there are so many people claiming Jewish or part-Jewish ancestry. They didn’t all immigrate to Poland from Israel or the U.S. Maybe the Poles saved more Polish Jews than they are getting credit for and these Jews just kept quiet all of these years because they didn’t want to have anything to do with Communism, or remembering the war too much?
In response to the post of
Alfred M. Karwowski, M.A.
Polish Heritage Institute,
Chicago
Mr. Karwowski,
Although I did not find any obvious (to this layman) factual errors in you posting I did find several contextual omissions.
The fact that Poland had the largest anti-Nazi network or any of the other facts you sighted as proof of Polish Christians’ anti-Nazi fervor, while very interesting and, taken out-of-context demonstrative of selflessness and altruism, they offer no proof or even indication of less than extreme collaboration between Christian Poles and Nazis in the torture and murder of the three million Jews of Polish nationality.
The Polish resistance to the Nazi occupation being much great than that of the Vichy Whores and the bloodthirsty Magyars was strictly a function of resistance in all virtually all occupied lands in history has always increased in synch with the severity of the occupiers oppression of the native population.
Unlike the populations of other European nations, Poles was viewed by Hitler as Untermentchen, less than human but not without value as slaves to the Master Race. As you so conveniently point out, the German occupiers’ treatment of the Poles by their German occupiers was, as I understand it, second in brutality only to that reserved for Jews. The Polish resistance was a natural unintended consequence of the brutality unleashed on the Polish civilian population. One could, if one wished, speculate ad conjecture on the ‘what if’ of ‘would the Polish have offered as robust resistance to Nazi occupation had they been offered ‘annexation’ similar to Austria’s’ but in the end any resulting answer would be just that, speculation and conjecture.
Lastly, the your assertion that more Poles than any other nationality saved Jews is at once unproven and easily contestable, and misleading as offered without context.
In 1939 there were approximately 3,474,000 Jews, out of a total Polish population of approximately 28,000,000 living within the borders of Poland. (In the interests of candor, honesty and full disclosure: Three of my four grandparents were Polish Jews and virtually their entire families were killed by the Nazis with, in at least some instances, the ready, willing and able assistance of their Polish co-townsmen.)
Of that total, approximately 3,100,000 approximately 90% were killed during WWII (and approximately 20% of the surviving 10% emigrated in late 1946 and early 1947 in response to the Kleice pogrom of July 4th, 1946). In contrast, 12% of the Christian Polish population was killed, (including all military deaths).
In Denmark, out of a total Jewish population of 8,000, 450, or 7%, were captured by the Nazis. The rest were saved by the Christian Danish population of 3, 800,000.
Even a novice student of history would justifiably scoff were I to offer the comparison of the 90% death rate of Polish Jews to the 7% death rate of Danish Jews as materially relevant to the discussion of whether or not the vast and overwhelming majority of Christian Poles were born and bred anti-Semites. Your attempt to use raw numbers with no serious consideration of contextual relevance is, in geometric orders of magnitude of lesser academic value, than using strictly the 13-fold variation in percentage of Jewish population killed in the Polish experience vs. the Danish experience.
Although I trust that your presentation of erroneous conclusions regarding the collaboration of the Christian Polish population with the Nazis as it relates to the murder of the Jewish Polish population was strictly unintentional, an old saying came to mind as I read your recent post on VIN: Figures cannot lie but liars can figure.
Sincerely,
A Would-Have-Been Polish Citizen
VIN Editor: I would hope you would consider moving and pinning this discussion towards the top of your blog for a while. I believe Mr. Karwowski can yet enlighten many of your regular readers and contributors.
Ladies and Gentlemen:
Contrary to what you might have been told, Poland NEVER collaborated with the Nazis. This is a historical fact which is recognized by every reputable scholar who specializes in Polish history. Anyone who promotes the false claim that Poles collaborated with the Nazis is either ignorant or deliberately slandering the people of Poland.
A “joke” about Poles collaborating with Nazis is comparable to a “joke” that denies the reality of the Holocaust. Nazi Germany killed around 6 million Polish citizens, this includes 2-3 million ethnic Poles (mostly Christians), and 3 million Jews. Ethnic Poles were prisoners in nearly every concentration camp in the extensive camp system in German-occupied Poland and the Reich. Ethnic Poles were victims of Nazi torture, executions, cruel medical experiments, starvation, and disease.
Poland was the only country to fight the Nazis from the first day of the German invasion of Poland until the end of the war in Europe. Polish troops fought the Nazis on every front in World War II.
Ethnic Poles organized one of the largest underground anti-Nazi movements in Europe with more than 300 widely supported political and military groups. Despite military defeat, the Polish government never surrendered. In 1940 a Polish “government-in-exile” became based in London. Officers of Poland’s regular army headed an underground military force, known as the Armia Krajowa or AK (the Home Army) which fought the Nazis throughout World War II. This Home Army launched an uprising in Warsaw against the German Army on Aug. 1, 1944. The uprising fell after 63 days because the Soviet Army (an ally of the U.S.) chose not to help. More than 20,000 Polish soldiers were killed, and around 230,000 Polish civilians were murdered by the Nazis during the uprising or shipped off to Auschwitz-Birkenau after the uprising fell. The Nazis destroyed most of Warsaw during the fighting and later burned whatever buildings were still standing. More than 90 percent of Warsaw was destroyed.
According to Dr. Danusha V. Goska: “Poles fought the Nazis first, fought the Nazis longest, and fought them, per capita, the hardest. (…) Poland had the largest underground resistance army during World War II; Polish soldiers fought, not just in Poland, but far afield, making significant contributions, for example, in the RAF during the Battle of Britain, and in Italy at Monte Cassino. Poles were essential to one of the key factors in the defeat of the Nazis and the Allies’ victory, the breaking of the Enigma code. More Poles than members of any other nation rescued Jews; count the trees dedicated to Righteous Gentiles at Yad Vashem. Poles suffered worse, under the Nazis, than any other national group except for Jews and Gypsies, reports historian Michael C. Steinlauf. Poles were gassed with Zyklon B; Poles were tortured in concentration camps and in a special school set up to teach Nazis how to torture; Poles were shot en masse by Einsatzgruppen; Poles were deported in cattle cars, sterilized, burned alive. (…) Poles were denied education; Poles, like the late Pope John Paul II, studied secretly in “flying universities.” Poles were executed for crimes like owning a radio, or offering a glass of water to a Jew. Poles were murdered merely to terrorize other Poles.”
No, the Polish nation did NOT collaborate with the Nazis.
Sincerely,
Alfred M. Karwowski, M.A.
Polish Heritage Institute,
Chicago
Good attempt to twist history.
The reason the Poles did not form a Goverment to collaberate with the Nazis was that the Nazis did not want them to do so. Unlike the citizens of other countries invaded by the Nazis, the Poles were considered unter-mentchen and were governed by a German run General Goverment. Hitlers plan was to use the Poles as slaves and to incorporate Poland into Greater Germany.
The fact that you found one Jewish writer who got his facts wrong proves one thing only: That one Jewsish writer got his facts wrong.
Polish anti-sematism was out of control and building up to new levels between the wars. Jedwabne was just one instance of how the Poles (may G-d avenge the blood of their victims soon) turned on their Jewish neighbors and with no prodding from the Germans (may their name be eradicated from the face of G-d’s earth soon) perpetrated some of the most horrific atrocities of the Holocaust.
Go join David Irving and his ilk. You will surely feel more comfortable there.
Remember and Avenge the Jewish blood spilled in Kielce by average Polish citizens, July 4th,1946.
Given that they were the only occupied country that did not form a division to fight for the Nazis and the only one from which the Nazis were unable to form a puppet government, I’d have to say that saying that they generally collaborated is utter rubbish.
And for those that said you should read a little bit – try Secret City by Gunnar Paulsson (a Jewish author) – a book about the hidden Jews of Warsaw. Arriving at stats I have not seen challenged anywhere by any academic he suggests that between 70 to 90 thousand Poles were involved in hiding Jews in Warsaw as opposed to 3 to 4 thousand Szmalcownik who would hunt Jews not normally to denounce them but to demand money for not doing so. The rest of the population, whether anti-semitic or not, would turn a blind eye whenever they saw someone they suspected of being Jewish.
And standing underneath a scale I’d feel perfectly safe under the 3 to 4 thousand…..
I want to apologize to those who I offended with my earlier comment. It was stupid of me to post those types of thoughts where they could
upset many people who read them here. I had no desire to do that to that extent but it was dumb not to realize it would. I learned a lot just by the reaction. At the time I did not understand how inciteful the comments would be, it was not my intent.
I was just speaking from the perspective of that minority that has been mentioned, because its disgusting to be lumped in with the
terrible things that did happen. And to be clear I understand all sorts of terrible atrocities happened, I was just trying to discuss how much was done by whom. But besides that its probably better that I just stop. I just wish peace to anyone who reads this.
Anonymous said…
Yes, we all know how the Poles were terribly guilty of Nazi collaboration and killing Jews.
We in America are surprised to learn how revisionist history in Poland goes- children are taught in school that the Poles were innocent victims of the Holocaust!
November 20, 2007 11:44 PM
How can you blame the Poles for re-writing hisstory to make themselves look human? They probably learned it from Anon. 4:51. Maybe Mr. Anon. 4:51 teaches is a Polish school teacher.
The numbers don’t lie. 3 million polish jews were deported with the assistance or with the tacit approval of the citizens of Poland, who only too gladly pillaged there property shortly after they left. many survivors were mudered when they returned to reclaim their property after the war. Poland is a good Christian country, i.e., a bunch of anti semitin.
Yes, we all know how the Poles were terribly guilty of Nazi collaboration and killing Jews.
We in America are surprised to learn how revisionist history in Poland goes- children are taught in school that the Poles were innocent victims of the Holocaust!
Who the Hell caes if the Polish anti-smites are offnded by comments on this show.
Last I checked these are the same polish anti-emites who brought us the pogram of Kielce in 1946. 1946.
1946!!!!!
The Nazis were gone and there were hardly any Jews left to kill but that wasn’t good enough for these bloodthirsty dirtbags.
Go defend the Polish barbarians somewhere else.
There is a whole internet full of historic revisionism. Go there. You’ll fit right in because that is where you belong.
Anon 4:51 – You are a useless piece of bovine fecal matter.
Ever hear of Jedwabne?
Read a little bit and learn something instead of spew that trash.
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=44151159994668
You have no idea how grateful i am that you didn’t say this to me in person. I couldn’t afford the lawyers I would need to hire to keep me off death row if anyone ever spewed that garbage to me in person.
Not only that, they were still murdering jews AFTER the Holocaust !!!
This was the joke it was on a show called Back to You, which is set in a Pittsburgh television station’s news room.
The sports anchor was trying to encourage one reporter to join him in a bowling match against a rival television station. The reporter, who is Polish (with a made-up, unpronounceable last name, even in Polish) declined because it was his anniversary and he wanted to get home to his wife.
But the sportscaster pressed on. “C’mon Gary. Bowling is in your Polish blood, like kielbasa, and collaborating with the Nazis.”
I am a bit stunned to read the comments here but I suppose there are lots of people in this world and this is only a small sampling. But anyway, these comments are ignorant. For example ‘only too happy’, ‘worse than the Nazis’ – are you kidding me?
I don’t think all of the non-Jews who died or lost their loved ones were ‘only too happy’ for what happened. And there were millions of non-Jews, please don’t forget.
For example did you know this:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2007/11/09/4644018-ap.html
If you look beyond stories of Jewish persecution you will read about events such as these as well.
Please consider a broader view. This is why Poles are upset at the comments in this show.
iS THIS A REAL QUESTION?
Of course they did.
No! the poLes did not collaborate with the nazis! RATTER THE NAZIS COLLABORATED WITH THE POLES!
Good Point.. .I am standing a mile or two back .. it’s a large side.
Let’s place the Poles’ who did the right thing on one side of the scale and the Poles’ who committed attrocities on the other side.
Tip: Don’t stand beneath the attrocity side of the scale without a hard hat.
The joke is that the Polish guy is denying some Poles collaborated with the Nazis. Many Poles were extremely anti-Semitic. The punch line is the Nazis put most of their death camps in Poland. The Ukranians were not much better, possibly worse than the Poles.
Let’s place the Poles’ who did the right thing on one side of the scale and the Poles’ who committed attrocities on the other side.
Tip: Don’t stand beneath the attrocity side of the scale without a hard hat.
My grandmother (a survivor) told me that the Poles were a lot worse than the Nazis. If you had to run and the choice was into the hands of a pole or into the hands of a Nazi, the choice would have been to the Nazi. If you have a Polish cleaning lady you can tell they all have an attitude toward jews
Of course, there were some who can be considered chasidei umos haolam, but, in general they were only too happy when hitler Y”msh and his henchmen came in. They shed too much of our blood for so many years before World War II, and even now, there is still so much anti-semitism there; they don’t even let our dead rest in peace.
Did Pole Collaborate With The Nazis?
Do birds fly?
Do fish swim?