Stony Point, NY – A menorah in front of Town Hall was vandalized this morning.
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The metal structure was snapped off at its base and left there, said Supervisor Phil Marino, who saw the damage when he arrived at Town Hall.
"This is an absolute disgrace," Marino said. "I promise our Jewish brothers and sisters that it will be fixed and the menorah will be lit before sunset tonight."
Stony Point police are investigating. This is the second year that the town has placed a menorah, a symbol of the Jewish holiday Hanukkah, in front of the municipal building. [lohud]
We will never be able to settle this. What some consider an accusation (‘your actions are based on a galus mentality’) others consider a praiseworthy middah for which one must strive if one does not hav it already.
Time to wrap up this debate. History will decide whether Chazal or Chabad were right.
Let us hope it will be a cheap history lesson but an instance of Jews acting with disregard to da’as chachomim and divrai Chazal not ending in disaster is hard to find.
7:27 etc
1, I see your point about the X’s although I’m sure you will agree that the number of potential X’s across the country far outweighs the number of Menorahs even if every Jewish owned car put one on top! So it’s not the same idea in reality.
In this country the holiday season begins around Thanksgiving & goes through mid-January…about 2 months. Chanukah is 8 days. Then the Menorahs come down, some faster than others. And FYI, I have never had a Menorah on my car. I personally don’t like it, but I see that others do & I understand their reasoning. I must say I smile when I see them on top of cars, the bright bulbs do light up gray days, but I don’t particularly care either way. If it matters to some people, that’s OK too.
#2 & 3. Again, I see your point of view. I disagree, I don’t think it cheapens Chanukah. You must remember these public Menorahs are aimed
the non-frum population: people whose only exposure to Yiddishkeit is through seeing a “Jewish display” in a mall or town square. They are not directed at you and me.
It causes me concern that Frum people view this as being the same as goyim. We’re not, & the idea is to show these uninvolved Jews that WE have a wonderful Yom Tov of Jewish pride, joy, & celebration; they don’t need THAT stuff! In that respect we are the same as every other race & religion in the world: religious practice is to be enjoyed & valued. The difference is, ours is the Emes. It’s all a matter of how you look at the methods used, isn’t it?
I don’t know if you read the Jewish Press, but a number of non-Jews write in quite often to offer support and encouragement. In a world where anti-semitism is “enjoying” a resurgence, positive responses from non-Jews are to be valued. The problem is not always with goyim; sometimes it’s with us.
Finally, I appreciate your reasonable tone and your obvious determination to engage in a healthy discussion…which is exactly what we’re doing! It feels good, doesn’t it? Maybe all future discussions can take place like this.
But I ask you to forgive me for still feeling the sting of the Ba’al Gaiva remark. Even though we disagree about these issues, I don’t believe either of us is a Ba’al Gaiva. We just feel passionately about our views & we both need to remember others feel just as passionately about theirs.
I hope you and your family, wherever you live (maybe we’re even friends & neighbors!) enjoy a truly spiritual & memorable Chanukah, and I wish you a Gut Chodesh. We should hear Besoros Tovos from Klal Yisroel.
To 6:34
Your comments have thankfully become a little more moderate.
I am not trying to be hurtful & vicious & if that’s the way I came across then you are mireading me.
I am just trying to express my humble opinion that is shared by many.
I will illustrate my objection to these public displays in a way that I think will make it very clear & I think you will have to conceed that I have a point.(Of course I don’t expect you to change your mind).
#1 Would it bother you at all if there were hundreds of cars with large illuminted crosses or statues driving around ????? It would definitley bother me. I am not bothered by displays in private homes of foreign holiday symbols but would be offended if these foreign (to me) religios symbols are coming at me in your face & I can’t avoid them by taking a different route.
#2 These big menorah displays in malls & other public pritzusdige streets cheapens the whole Hannuka concept & says “I have my menorah & you have your tree see we are the same (just come in and shop for some gifts it’s all about gifts anyway isn’t it)Menorah=Tree it’s all one big happy family before you know some enerprising individual will start displaying Hannuka bushes.
#3 These grandiose menorah displays have inspired much Anti Semitism and resulted in increased vandilism.
I am proud to go on the street wearing my kippah & dressing like a ben torah in my quiet unassuming way & am sure I am only causing Kiddush Hashem. I am proud of our beautiful Shuls & am sure that the goyim don’t mind as long as we don’t drive around trumpeting our religion like we own the streets.
Now please be honest & answer me on these valid arguments.
I hope that this is not taken to be vicious & hateful it is not meant to be, Thank you
I think 5:16 means Litvish!!
We can all play that game. How about Losers, Luckless, Lackless…and we can try every letter of the alphabet.
Can we all PLEASE STOP THIS NONSENSE NOW?!?!
to 1:39 & the rest of the posters
I’ll try to put it in words that you can understand. When I said go hide under a rock I meant the following:
Like many Jews in the past & all too many today, you and many (but not all ) of your fellow posters appear (I say “appear”) to believe the best way for Jews to act is to hide away from the goyim who are big, bad, and mean (again, it’s my interpretation of so many attitudes like yours) because they may hurt you for being openly proud of your faith.
So if you hide away no one will get you.
Now if you didn’t mean any of this, well, that’s good. But just like YOU misinterpret MY words, I may have done the same. But in YOUR case it’s OK to rant & rave with such anger (I actually think your intent is worse than that, but again, that’s MY OPINION!!) However, I and we who “dare” to disagree with you are not given the same right to disagree, even politely.
That is my objection to YOUR words. If you choose to continue this argument & continue the Sina you obviously hold (again, based upon your words) be my guest. But as far as I’m concerned, I won’t respond to any more viciousness. I hope you can see your way to apologize for the nasty way you argue. I don’t expect apologies for your views…again, I may disagree but I know that you have the right to think or believe anything you want.
Now I speak to everyone out there. I don’t care who your Rav is, what Nussach you use when you daven, whose Schechita you will eat & what Chumrahs you have. Not my business. But please understand that EVERYONE ELSE IS ENTITLED TO THE SAME RESPECT. I honestly don’t get why there is so much hatred (yes, that is the right word) towards people who have different views. Don’t you all see the correlation between the attitudes on these posts & what we as a people have been subjected to over the past few thousand years? Why is OK for Jews to treat other Jews like this?? Doesn’t any of this make any of you stop & take stock? Or is the “problem” always the other guy’s fault.
Please consider my words. If you still think I’m an apikoros (a terrible, wicked accusation to hurl at anyone) I can’t help that. But I really hope some will think before you attack in future.
I would ask the Moderator to edit inflammatory, disrespectful & hurtful attitudes. I realize the posts may become quite boring, but we can still have lively debate & arguments without viciousness. I can only say it’s a good thing we’re all anonymous!! I must say I have learned a lot of very interesting things since I started following some posts, esp. re Halacha. That is a definite plus of this site!
Signed,
ANONYMOUS
Isn’t it interesting how certain groups are tolerant of every opinion so long as it agrees with their’s? Maybe it has something to do with groups starting with L – Liberals,,,,,,,,,
To 1:19
I quote you
“Meanwhile, stop complaining & go hide under a nice big rock so the goyim won’t find you”.
Is that a nice rational reponse
is that the way you want your children to speak. That is typical of anti semites “Go hide under a rock you vermin”
Is that not Bal Gavah speak – go ask your Rov if you have one.
Do you think the Lubabich Rebbe would approve of your language ?
to 12:11…
I am 11:58. Please explain to me POLITELY exactly what disgusting language I used. There are no curse words, no anger, or anything like that. I think you’re reading things that just don’t exist.
But they (?) say that the person who sees negativity all the time is the one who has it. I feel sorry for you, not because of your views, you’re entitled to those. But the way you express yourself shows you’re a very unhappy, insecure, and extremely angry person. No, I’m not a shrink, just a happy, positive person who likes to see the good in others. I don’t think I’m a Ba’al Geiva, but I may be wrong there…
I’m having a hard time seeing any good in you at this point, based on your irrational response. However, being a nice person I’ll try my best.
A freilichen Chanukah everyone!!!
You know something I believe that Rav Elyashiv is the Godol Hador for me & those who accept him as such. I don’t expect the whole world to agree with everything he says. They can go by their legitimate poskim. No one is G-d
no one is infalible 7 if there are people that argue & have a substantial position against any godol (not their own) they have a right to express their opinion.
They don’t have to immediatley go under a rock because some insecure
lemming can’t handle it.
Yes 11:58 Reread your post & look in the mirror as to who is hate mongering. Look at the disgusting language you use because not everyone agrees with you – maybe you should go go under a rock or wahtever since you know so much about that – you Bal Gavah.
To 11:06
If I or anyone DARED say Rav Eliashev or any of your “Gedolim” was wrong, you’d be outraged. WITH JUSTIFICATION…that’s disrespectful. And don’t give me any garbage about “once I heard….”
But you can say that about the Rebbe Zichrono L’Brocho & THAT’S OK???
You are such a hypocrite. Take from Lubavitch when it suits you…you need a minyan, kosher food, whatever, there’s always have the Chabad. But you have the gross chutzpa to impugne the Rebbe & his Chassidim??
I “defected” to Chabad for a good reason. You just explained it to the world, you & your kind who posted here.
Shame, shame on all of you. Your Gedolim are so proud. But G-d isn’t.
You hate-mongers just don’t get it, do you?
Can’t you just stop with the rhetoric, agree to disagree & as an earlier poster said, if you’re so worried about Chabad’s outreach, do something yourselves!
Meanwhile, stop complaining & go hide under a nice big rock so the goyim won’t find you.
Who’s fighting ? What hate mongering ? Can’t we disagree?
I have just had enough of being bothered & upset with their public displays that I don’t agree with
& think is wrong & detrimental.
So for once I feel good at having vented & perhaps made those that made me be upset, get a little upset themselves that others are disagreeing with them & “publicising” their opinion.
I am NOT fighting just stating a very popular opinion publicly.
I don’t care if this bothers them as they obviously don’t care if what they do bothers me. Halevai this would be the biggest “fight” in Klall yisroel.
First of all, any constructive criticism without all the hate mongering is taken much better then the simple clowns on this board who just spew hatred (where did they learn this)? I have always believed that if you have a problem with the way someone is doing something, criticizing with hatred simply puts them on the defense and nothing will ever be solved.
At the end of the day, regardless of which opinion is correct, we Jews have enough problems of our own. There is no peacein Israel, we have shidduch issues, our children are often straying from the derech, there is not a frum community in the world that does not have politics. If our worst problem was Lubavitch and large menorahs then Klal Yisroel would be in VERY good shape.
Save your fighting and your anger for enemies of the Jews not for Lubavitch.
If I would have the means ($$$$) of advertising in major publications I would do it in a minute (At least here ia a forum where I can vent & perhaps others with the means & where with all will follow through)
I want to add that I have nothing against Lubavitch I even attended clandestine Tanya groups while in Yeshiva & asked advice & brochas from the Rebbe Z”tl. I also commend Lubavitch for the outreach via Chabad Houses all over the globe. But today there are some things that are just plain shtus. and there are other things that border on pure apikorsus. Whatever they do privately is their business but when they “parade” their shtusim (targeting) to the public (goyim) that is my peeve. and I appreciate that here is a forum for me to vent. Thank you.
I realize the Rebbe recomended these menorah moblies & I think he was wrong on that. Hey he was human. Also today, due to the sheer numbers & locations chosen & legal fights & negative publicity that occur over many of these these public displays I think he would have chosen to back off in all those instances.
I do not talk in shul.
That this is a meshugas & shtus can be verified by almost any non Lubabitch Rov (although most will not publicise this but will tell you in private – Don’t beleive me check it out !!! ) I also that I also would not say this in non-anonymously for fear of retribution.
Anon 10:25
What exactly are the consequences “of this Meshugas”? and since this campaign was started by the Lubvitcher Rebbe – who I trust you agree was a Gadol – how do you have the nerve to call it a Meshugas? Did any Rov ever tell you it is a Meshugas? or did you just hear this while talking in the back of shul?
Anonymous 10:25 AM:
I think you should be the one to take back your religion and lead the campaign to let everyone to there know that Frum Jews don’t agree with public Menorah lightings. Talk is cheap! You want the campaign, go do it!
It really bothers me that the Lubavs have hijacked our religion
and go parading around seemingle representing all frum jews in an in your face fashion which is against what most of us want -they causing a chillul Hashem & animosity & retribution against all jews. Why can’t we just be Hatznea Leches. Kiruv is wonderful – but what’s wrong with having a menorah in the window.
I wish there would be a campaign that publicises tha fact that most frum jews are not happy with this
shtus. We don’t want to suffer the consequences of this meshugas.
Anon 9:51 is the only voice preaching tolerance. You anti-Lubavitchers out there use this forum to spew hatred & contempt. I can hear the anger. Understand this…putting up public Menorahs does not hurt you or take away from any Kiruv you may do. But anything Lubavitch does makes you all so angry.
The “tolerance” you preach to our Xtian fellow citizens is wonderful. Now maybe you can take a tenth of it & apply it to Chabadniks. Or isn’t Chabad deserving of any Ahavas Yisroel?
My father, A”H, a Frum “Misnagid/Yeshivish type” once told me he hated Lubavitch because HIS father had. I adored my father, but he was wrong!! What kind of logic is that?? And I’m glad to say as he had more & more interaction with Chabadniks he was able to put aside his prejudices & accept & love each Jew on his merit, & ultimately had the utmost respect for the Rebbe & his Chassidim. My mother, zol zei gezunt, later told me she thought he was becoming a Lubavitcher. My father liked that.
A nice little story…some of you people could use such a lesson in openmindedness.
The derech of Yisroel Sabah has always been to keep one’s head down in galus.
I’m always amazed by the comments you see on these boards. One person says something here, quotes it as a fact and suddenly there is a war of words!
Chabad conducts literally thousands of public Menorah ceremonies around the world at which, literally a quarter million Jews participate (assume that there are 1,000 public ceremonies and 250 people attend each – clearly some are more and some are less). Of a couple thousand Menorahs, every year 2 or 3 get vadalized and in 2,000 cities, there are 2-3 court cases. The other 99.9% all stand nicely, no valdalizm, no court cases, no problems with any Goyim. In fact, in a number of cases in the past when the City has not allowed the Menorah, a GOY has often volunteered to host it.
Then someone determines that Chazal for the last 2,000 years have stood up against public Menorah lightings. Really??? Can you quote yor source? Can you even quote any Godol who has ever publicly spoken out against public Menorah lightings? While you may not hold the Lubavitcher Rebbe to the same standard as the Rishonim you surely would agree that he was a Gadol?
Not all Public Menorahs are 30 feet tall. In most cities they probably fall under 10 feet tall. So your silly argument about Chazal wanting us to build “ever bigger” menorah’s is nonsense.
And finally, the comment regarding loving all Jews is correct! It’s amazing how with all the enemies that Jews have out there, some Frum Jews find it extremely important to fight and be angry with other Jews. If the Lubavitchers want to light public Menorahs because they believe that they are attracting more Jews to Yiddishkeit, let them be. That should be our worst problem! Surely people in your community do worse things then the crime Lubavitch is committing here which is simply doing Kiruv. You say you don’t like their method? I have an idea. You move to Stony Point and you take over the Kiruv work there.
“1) We are in galus
2) Gedolai Yisroel of the last 2,000 years, r”l, have left a clearly marked path for us to follow in galus.
3) Chazal were at least as smart as the people putting up these ‘menorohs’ and didn’t tell us to do so.”
Chazal did not instruct us to build huge Menorahs to be Mekarev Klal Yisrael. Did they tell us not to do so? I’m confused. Don’t we do many things today that we did not do in years past? Does that make all of them wrong? Do we not now gather in Madison Square Garden for Siyum Hashas, teaming through the streets and subways of Manhattan to gather? Did we not just have the annual Agudah Convention where hundreds of Jews gather to discuss important issues and hear Divrei Torah? Do we not have hundreds of products to purchase in stores with Kashrus supervision? Do we not have more and more Kosher restaurants at which to eat? What does Chazal have to say about these things? Are they wrong because they weren’t done in generations past?
As to the question of making a bracha near a Nativitiy scene, that is the only Halacha Shaila I see here and that should be asked of one’s Rav.
As to the methods of Chabad and the comment that Chanukah is not a Jewish Xmas, what do the word of the Pasuk, “Baasher Hu Sham” mean? One must approach to help a man, to be Mekarev him Baasher Hu Sham. What are the Nisyonos of the Non-Frum Yidden? Do you know? How best must we approach them to help them become closer to Torah? Do you know? What was Avraham doing when he traveled from place to place with his family? Who were the Shivim Nefesh? How would Chazal wish for you to reach the thousands of Nefesh out there? Or are you one of those who feel that the thousands of Nefashos, the Shivim Nefesh of our time, are not our responsibility? That Avraham is an example only sometimes to suit what we feel is right.
Have some of your issues now been addressed?
I’ve never before encountered so many people trying to address an issue by avoiding it!
Did it ever occur to you that there are non-Frum Jews out there–yes, even in Stony Point–who are inspired by the Menorahs and by the work of Chabad. It is PR in the best of ways. It draws people. It connects them and they get pulled in. Thousands of Jews worldwide are Frum because of big Menorahs, ice Menorahs, Lego Menorahs, Mitzvah Tanks, Lulav bentchings on the street, children’s camps, Hebrew Schools… Now, if you want to do it better than Chabad and if you don’t “hold” by Chabad, then go ahead and do it!!! Nobody else is doing it with as much success and with as much Hislahavus. They are saving Neshamas every day! What are you doing?!!!!
Anonymous said…
This shabbos i wil not go to shul! how dare we build such large buildings! it offends the goyim! chazal tell us not to provoke the goyim by this!
December 7, 2007 2:45 PM
Obviously you do not have a response to the issues raised by the previous poster so you have done the next best thing: You have assigned new motives to his (her) rejection of your ideology and then torn to bits that motivation by taking it to the extreme, in the hope that you can change the topic to the one of degrees to which we as Jews in exile should take the sensativities of our gentile neighbors into consideration if we do so to the detriment of our service of G-d.
It might have worked for some but I for one am curious – how do you address the issues he raises?
The Lubavitchers get great free publicity by lighting the menoras and posing like the leaders of the Jewish people. A masterful PR stroke at little or no cost by the Rebbe shlita, nussi hadayr mamash.
People who don’t know think that they are the accepted leaders of religious Jews.
But is it right ?
This shabbos i wil not go to shul! how dare we build such large buildings! it offends the goyim! chazal tell us not to provoke the goyim by this!
Yes, in many Jewish communities throughout the world, observant Jewish men wear hats and tuck their tzitzit in for fear for their safety.
This is very much the case in much of Europe,South and Latin America now. This was also the case when I was growing up in NJ in the 60s and 70s. My brothers were constantly beaten for wearing a kippah, so they wore caps instead.
Sadly where I live we are experiencing a GREAT deal of Anti Semitism from our neighbors (nearly every shul has been vandalized and every cemetery) and as a result many of the men we know choose to wear inconspicuous hats. Sephardic Jews have always tucked their tzitzit in by minhag.
Is there any halachic reason why a man should NOT choose to wear a hat or cap rather than risk being beaten or harassed in the streets for wearing a kippah?
Been fun but i gotta run. Good Shabbos and a Happy Hanukah to all!
(or is that a Chappy Chanukah?)
Anonymous said…
To Chabad Chosid:
Why are you arguing with these morons ?!?
The only thing that irks the snags is that they lack the courage to do what Chabad does.
So stop wasting your breath and have a great shabbos…
December 7, 2007 1:52 PM
irks the snags? What happened to your love of all Jews?
Or does your love and acceptance of all Jews only include those who are unlearned enough to drink the cool-aid?
Yisroel af al pi sheLO chatoh yisroel hu!
A) The issue is not how many gentiles might beat you. The issue is whether we are smarted than chazal.
B) While you might have the right to decide to be beaten for the sake of going beyond da’as chachomim, (and I could argue that you do not have that right, but lets leave that for another day)
you certainly do not have the right to volunteer everyone else to be beaten.
(Interesting note: Some muslims actually believe differently and believe that if in order to kill Jews one must also kill a few Muslims riding on the same bus you are required to do so.)
anon 1:52 you are right!
Whats the difference between a Soita and a Shota?
A Sote platz alein
A Shoite macht andere platzin
Chabad Chossid said…
You are right! i will stop wearing a yarmulkah and tzitis, i don’t want to call attention to me, you know the galach has a yarmulkah too, this will remind them of the jews who wear yarmulkahs and they will beat us.
December 7, 2007 1:47 PM
That is an absurd response. You are basiclly arguing that the assertion that we should do exactly what chazal instructed and not more is an assertion that we should ignore chazal’s instructions entirely.
To Chabad Chosid:
Why are you arguing with these morons ?!?
The only thing that irks the snags is that they lack the courage to do what Chabad does.
So stop wasting your breath and have a great shabbos…
Do you even begin to know how many of the oibersthers precious children were mekayem his mitzvah of menorah (and mitzvos in general) beacuse of seeing the menorahs?
If it means that i may get beaten by some anti-semites – then so be it! at least hashems children are being “oise retzon kono”!
By countering my points about the teachings of chazal, the Gaonim and the Rishonim by citing the instructions of the Rebbeh ZTZ”L he unambigously asserted that the Rebbeh ZTZ”L was of the same authority level as Chazal, the Gaonim and the Rishonim.
You are right! i will stop wearing a yarmulkah and tzitis, i don’t want to call attention to me, you know the galach has a yarmulkah too, this will remind them of the jews who wear yarmulkahs and they will beat us.
Anon 1:28: “I never knew there was anyone who put the Rebbe ZTZ”L in the same catagory as chazal or the ga’onim or the rishonim.”
The writer never said it was chazal or rishonim. Could be a Gadol living now, or 1000 years ago!
You learn something new everyday.
I never knew there was anyone who put the Rebbe ZTZ”L in the same catagory as chazal or the ga’onim or the rishonim.
Unless you meant that we have different chazal.
stony point is so out of the jewish area why there of all places i agree
withe the above
anan 12:41pm – “Gedolai Yisroel of the last 2,000 years, r”l, have left a clearly marked path for us to follow in galus.”
And it just so happens, that a “Gadol” called the Lubavitcher Rebbe encouraged these large Menorahs. You follow your “Gedolim” and we will follow ours. If we each do what we need to strive towards serving Hashem with all our hearts and souls, all will be good.
Watch out. You are about to be accused of being ashamed of being Jewish.
I have been making this point for years and have repeatedly pointed out that if chazal wanted us to build ever-larger menorohs they would have instucted us to do so.
In response I have been accused of having low self esteem and a ‘galus mentality’.
I feel unqualified to discuss issues of self esteem 😉 but plead guilty, guilty as charged and unrepentantly guilty to having a galus mentality.
A sane person CANNOT avoid having a galus mentality while living in galus.
Failure to face facts is not a sign of Jewish pride. It is a sign of insanity.
So let’s face a few facts:
1) We are in galus
2) Gedolai Yisroel of the last 2,000 years, r”l, have left a clearly marked path for us to follow in galus.
3) Chazal were at least as smart as the people putting up these ‘menorohs’ and didn’t tell us to do so.
Just one more idea to consider – If we are putting up large menorohs to compete with Xmas displays, would it be more accurate to stop calling them chanukah menorohs and start calling them Xmas menorohs?
At least in our community, Chabad’s public menorah displays have inspired so much Anti Semitism that it is unbelievable.
In response to these very public spectacles we see a dramatic increase in synagogue vandalism, Anti Semitic diatribes in newspapers and cemetery desecrations.
I wish Chabad would stop calling attention to the Jewish community this time of year, every year. Xmas is a time when many Xtians become more deeply religious and with the Old Latin Mass being recited again (in which Jews are openly blamed for the death of their messiah) Anti Semitism is really on the rise to begin with.
Why should we remind them of our presence as a tiny and vulnerable minority in this country?
What Torah purpose is being served?
Hanukkah is a minor holiday, it is not the Jewish Xmas.
Is it even PERMISSIBLE to recite a bracha on a Menorah that is erected next to a nativity scene as so many Chabad displays are?
In our community, as soon as these menorahs go up, the Anti Semitic comments from Gentiles everywhere we go multiply. I wish Chabad would show some sensitivity to the times and place we live in (a Xtian country that for the most part is extremely anti foreign) and do their outreach to Jews in a way that Gentiles will not consider it proselytizing to them.