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Rosen maintains that the custom of preserving the woman's maiden name alongside the husband's name creates "a slippery slope" that could lead to giving different surnames to the children in the family.
"I don't consider myself a full-fledged conservative, but I completely object to feminism when it hurts family values, and it does!" Rosen states. "It is clear to me that a hyphenated name for married woman is just the beginning of the process. There are already women who keep their maiden name alone, as if saying, 'Marriage is only a secondary aspect of life,' 'Who needs to know that I'm married,' and 'This is an invasion of privacy.'"
Rosen claims that the trend is founded on "a feminist message which strays from the patriarchal tradition and makes a statement that women are not the husband's property."
However, he says that the harm done to family values is evident. "The tradition and heritage of a family unit includes the role of head of the family. Those who give up this component take part in the trend of shattering family values." [Ynet]
10:24 PM
that if the husband doesn’t behave
———————————-
Find me a husband that does behave
another issue of women’s lib
If a yungerman gets married and his shver is either paying the freight for their married life or has better name recognition in the couple’s community, then by all means it’s a choivah for him to take on his wife’s maiden name.
YY,
If she would take it because of my friend, obviously I would be upset… but that’s not the case we’re talking about here. I wouldn’t be worried if she kept her maiden name and I wouldn’t be worried if she had a valid reason for choosing a different name.
I don’t know of any woman, feminist or otherwise, who chooses a name because of her husband’s friend. Let’s keep this in the realm of reality.
The Wolf
there are women that will still keep their maiden name all their life even when they marry because their husbands last name is the same last name as hers
When a woman marries it is no longer like an adoption, where her previous identity disappears. You can’t appreciate the woman’s professional status (and salary!) but expect her individual identity to disappear.
brooklynwolf 2:27PM Another reason [for married women preserving their maiden name] is, that if the husband doesn’t behave, they can always become a separate entity.
Anon. 1:58 PM To Quote you;… Some people do that (keep their maiden name) in order to preserve their father’s name, because the offspring was all female… Then, two lines hence, (pls. lk. up in dict.) you ask the [rhetorical] question; “Do you want to go back to the days of Moshe ben Amram and Yocheved Bas Levi?!” Well, isn’t it done “to preserve Your father’s name?!”
Solve the issue of names –
Only marry your cousin as do Israel’s neighbours!
Last names are important – think of the gematria of names? Heritage –
What is in a name is very important both first and last.
What are people remembered for and who calls out their name? Those who loved and cherished them. Geneology research would come to a standstill if names were deemed unimportant.
As a single female, I wish I had this dilemma!
I have friends who keep their maiden name legally for a variety of reasons – whether it be bureaucratic, sentimental values, coming from a family of females, etc. For example, I have a friend who received her PhD and is published and changing her name would be confusing. Shockingly there are people for whom marriage is a huge step and parting with their name is somewhat of an identity crisis for them and they choose to keep it to ease the transition. Perhaps there are some women out there who do it for feminist reasons. Honestly, who cares? It is an issue between the husband and the wife. There are many legitimate issues that plague Jewish marriages today. Notwithstanding the shidduch parsha, I wish our Rabbis would concentrate on these core issues starting in grade school, as they impact on one another. Money, parnassah, popular culture, negiah issues are all contributing to the chipping away of “family values.” That being said, the Rabbi here is raising a legitimate issue although I do believe that marriages that end up in divorce are not as a result of a couple using two different names.
“Hey anon 2:44, are you proposing that all women use three last names?”
At least while their children are in the shiddach parsha, it would save a lot of asking around to try to figure out “Mi Yehudi”?
to wolf:
I don’t define myself by my last name and neither does my wife. Personally, I don’t care what last name she uses… it’s just a meaningless label and she’s welcome to use anyone she wants.
how about if your wife uses your best friends last name?
While you could look at this issue from from both sides and conclude that nobody is right and nobody is wrong, what is of concern is that this phenomenon of married women using their maiden names is of relatively recent origin. It was brought about by the so-called feminist novement, whose principles are inconsistent with Yiddishkeit. So, while I will not criticize anyone for using their maiden name, the question is why are you not using your husband’s name? If there is a non-feminist reason behind it (as some bloggers have pointed out) OK. However, I am afraid that much of this is simply following the societal trends. This is dangerous.
While filing my taxes last year, I needed a social security for my infant son and needed to prove in person at the SS office that my maiden name was accurate. They didn’t give a hoot that the baby’s (and my current) last name matched my husband’s. All in the name of heightened security, but with the mother’s proof no less. Not the father’s.
Anon 12:18 says Studies have shown a higher divorce rate for women who retained their maiden names…
SO do men who retain their birthnames also get divorced more often? OOPs…confusion here…so why DO men get divoced? And what about men with difficult to spell last names? That might impinge on their ability to find a mate (hey, who would want to marry someone with the name Zambousczik?) OK, so let’s just do away with last names in gantzen!!!!
in todays crzy world there is no reason at all why hemishe tyere mammas and meidlach should not be using their husband’s names at all times (except those where it may be necessary in a professional setting for those with such jobs)
otherwise this identity nonsense is just a bunch of modern american narishkeit.
Hey anonymous 12:29 PM take a chill! You’re not doing anything wrong by gong by your “maiden” name for convenience’s sake!
also Anon 12:18 says: these women “retain a subconscious vestige of their former lives” …HUH??? Which woman doesn’t retain something of her childhood years????? Is this the Ayatola?
OK, I often use my maiden name (i.e. birth name) in parentheses and my married name in addition. This way I still am who I was born to be, and people know who I am, while still showing that I’m married to so and so…I think that’s fair…and I’m no militant feminist…
The Maharsha’s mother-in-law was called Eydel. Because she was wealthy supported him he gave himself the surname EYDLIS.
Hey anon 2:44, are you proposing that all women use three last names? Cool…
In the Sephardic community I am from, almost all of the women use their father’s surname along with their husband’s surname, and always have.
This way we know a little bit about who is who and who they are from. At least back one generation.
I would propose that Jewish women use should their mother’s and mother’s mother’s surnames as well ans their own in addition to their husband’s. This way we could weed out all of the “pretenders” who have made their way into our communities as well.
Perhaps R’ Rosen is onto something.
December 26, 2007 2:13 PM
But you-know-who was onto it first.
One thing to keep in mind is that there are a variety of reasons why women will want to keep their maiden names (or hyphenate). Some may do it out of a sense of “militant feminism,” others may do it for the sheer sake of convenience, and others may have other motivations for doing so.
I think that you may have to look a lot deeper than the fact that they kept their maiden name to determine if this is truly an indicator of divorce. You may need to have more than just that one “symptom” to be at increased risk for a divorce.
The Wolf
According to a published Dutch study “women with modern attitudes toward gender—as reflected in participation in women’s liberation groups, using one’s maiden name, voting for far-left political parties, and so on—have a higher risk of divorce than more traditional women.” The effect of “modern values” turns out to be “substantial in size: The risk of divorce is 52% higher for the most progressive women than for the most traditional women.” Indeed, “women with traditional value orientations toward family roles are less likely to divorce than are women with modern values.”
Perhaps R’ Rosen is onto something.
10:14 AM – I dont know what you’re talking about — my family is persian and I grew up in a very persian community – and all the wives have their husbands name – unless fo proffesional reasons – just like everybody else.
Take a breather, did u know that some women do that to preserve their fathers name, since the offspring was all female.
Get a life, do you want to go back to ‘Moshe ben Amram’, ‘Yocheved bas Levi’.
Anon
12:29
It’s no worse than what I do. I use my secular name professionally (work and school) but I use my Hebrew name socially. If you ask my kids what my first name is, they’ll tell you my Hebrew name.
I use my secular name professionally because all my documentation already exists under that name would be difficult to change.
The Wolf
i am confused by all the debate and if s/o could clarify the following for me id appreciate it.
I have my maiden name on my license, passport, credit cards, etc, only because a) we travel alot and im always scared abt the passport name changing not being done in time b) im applying to graduate school right now and my transcripts wont match up and they WILL get all confused (b/c ive asked ppl who applied to the schools i applied to married. you run into probs) and c) I work for the gov’t right now and changing my name while working here would require i undergo a background check and a bunch of other garbage, just not worth my time.
BUT. E/O knows me as Mrs. [husbands name], and in the frum world i would never go by my maiden, or hyphenated, etc. Before I finish graduate school, Ill change my name legally b/c you can only get a license under one name and my understanding is you CANT ever change the name, to protect consumers from fraud and malpractice….but thats yrs away….
anyway, is what IM DOING viewed as feminist? Can someone tell me just yes or no????
its not that i “really” go by my maiden name, EVER. Its just that in the secular/government world, its totally not worth it for me to change it right now b/c of the time and money investment and all the potential complications (transcripts, travel, etc)
I would NEVER go by my maiden name, but just for school its too complicated to officially change it right now…
can s/o answer this for me? Is this type of “slamming of the trend” applicable to me, or is there really a whole slew of frum women out there who go by Ms. [their maiden name]???
Anon
12:18PM
Can you please cite those studies?
The Wolf
Studies have shown a higher divorce rate for marriages in which the woman retained her maiden name. Perhaps these women, by keeping their maiden name, retain a subconscious vestige of their former lives, and consequently find the return thereto less stigmatic..
I had some business with my husband in Quebec and when I had to sign the joint papers, they insisted that I use my maiden name, even though I protested strongly. I asked what last names the children go by and I was told they can choose. That is utterly confusing and ridiculous.I don’t last names is a religious issue, but, it is a way of identification.
IN CASE YOU GET IN TROUBBLE, YOU COULD ALWAYS USE YOUR WIFES MAIDEN NAME,
RABBI PLEASE MIX OUT OF MY MARRIGE,
Go look on Jewish Records Indexing Poland and see how many men took their wives names. It was happening in the shtetle long ago.
Anon. 10:48AM Your Kvetch, Gripe., Pet-peeve isn’t clear. If you’re kvetching aboaut the fact that Lubavitch didn’t get [enough] credit for all the good (positive) things that they [supposedly] introduced to Klal Yisroel. First of all on the word [and definition “CHEFTZA(H)” only the Yeshivish World has a Monopoly, because they’ve been busy for approx. the last 3,000 Years (since Mattan (for the non-Hebrew speaking readers, no, not Manhattan) Torah researching whether it’s GAVRA[H] or CHEFTZA[H]. So, you can,t infringe (pls. lk. up in Dict.) on a Copyright of 3,000 Years. Second, if it’ll make you feel better. LUBAVITCH, THANK YOU VERY, VERY, VERY MUCH!!!
This Rabbi has way too much time on his hands. There are many more importnat issues than this.
except that when people die they use the fathers names
on tombstones they use the fathers names
think of how counfusig it can be for our descendants if we mess around with the names
Let me get this straight, he wants to preserve a Christian 200 year old minhag? There were many names referenced in the Talmud that were based on ones mother. Not to mention that we only use the fathers name (Plony ben Plony) for aliyos, when it comes to tefilos we use our mothers (plony ben plonis).
IN THE PREVIOUS CENTURY SOME
MEN WOULD TAKE THEIR WIFE’S LAST NAME, NO HAD ANY PROBLEM WITH THIS,
I THINK THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS HE SHOULD WORRY ABOUT , THIS
GOES TO SHOW YOU HOW MUCH IN TOUCH
WITH TODAYS PROBLEMS SOME PEOPLE ARE
I don’t define myself by my last name and neither does my wife. Personally, I don’t care what last name she uses… it’s just a meaningless label and she’s welcome to use anyone she wants. It’s not a matter of being a “feminist” or not, it’s a matter of convenience… nothing more. Her having a different last name than mine doesn’t signify that she’s not “in my domain” or that we’re not a “solid family unit.” How dare you judge whether or not a family is solid based on something as superficial as a last name.
And, for the record, my wife does use my last name… but that was *her* choice. To me, I was fine if she kept her maiden name, hyphenated or took mine.
The Wolf
Narishkeit-
1. in the alter heim, many men had their mothers’ last names because their parents could not marry legally until the husband was 35 or older (gezeira of the government “pen yirbu”)…my father is one of 9 sons – 6 had their mother’s last name and three had their father’s until they came here and became citizens.
2. Maybe the wives are keeping their maiden names because of parnasa issues (anon 10:03) – so if hubby had a job, the paychecks could be in his name…
3. Bottom line – a joint shem tov is what’s important, not that it’s his or hers (which is really her father’s last name, so men “win” again…). The last name I wanted for my daughters – “aishes chaver”
It’s amazing how the “Yeshivish” Community gets all these original ideas, like buying an ois in a sefer Torah to unite klal yisrael, attaching a pushke to your car to make it a cheftza shel mitzva, kiruv organizations, Seed programs, Woman keeping taking their husbands last name (Very nice letter from the rebbe concerning this,) and all the other things that Lubavitch has been advocating for 30-50 years. But of course Lubavitch can’t be right because they’re… well, Lubavitch.
My last name is my wifes maiden name,
She always uses her maiden name!!!!
Television doesnt undermine family values any more than radio internet, and every other outside influence.
How can you have a solid family unit if mommy and daddy dont have the same FAMILY NAME?
he’s right. KOl hakavod.
Its a moden american shtus to not take on the husbands name. our jewish tradition is that the wife becomes part of the husbands domain. even when there weren’t surnames like the ones we have today there were family identifiers. this rabbi is 100% correct and all defenders are just being sympathetic to a modernishe faminist american shtus.
To have a television does not undermine family values but keeping a maiden name does. First work on the more important things before putting energy into miden names.
Persian Jewish women–frum or not frum–do not take their husbands’ names.
This rabbi is simply an ethnocentric ignoramus. He thinks everyone everywhere should behave like they did in his shtetl. Puh-leeze.
Get Real… We keep our maiden name simply to make it easier to keep our educational records intact. Try getting your undergraduatue or graduate degree transcript (for job background investigation) when you get married and your school claims your records don’t exist. It has nothing to do with frumkeit!
having last names is only a relatively modern thing, Hundreds of years ago people did not have last names. In the Tanach we do not see any last names.People were called the son of so and so. So I don’t see this as a religious issue at all.
makes a lot of sense. if your husband’s name doesn’t fit you, that is not only an indication of a deeper problem, but it is a problem in itself.
Oh, please! There are plenty of real issues to worry about. Getting worked up over something as silly as what last name a woman chooses is just counter-productive.
The Wolf