New York – Rabbi Hoffman: Violent Jerusalem ‘Hafganot’ Are Destroying ‘Klal Yisroel’

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    Jerusalem – The recent Hafganot about Shabbos violation has revealed a very ugly fact that is happening in our community. Gedolim are quoted on issue “A.” And people respond with behavior “B” – in a manner that is completely antithetical to the Torah way.

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    Yesterday, Rabbi Yakov Horowitz wrote a fabulous editorial about the issue of the hafganot and the manner in which the hafganot are planned and take place. In it he describes exactly how the so-called “askanim” are the ones that are calling the shots and are actually arranging for the violence.

    The “askanim” are directly contradicting Rav Elyashiv’s explicit directive that there be no violence. The people that respond to chilul Shabbos in so ugly a manner are very distant from the true Torah way, and probably more distant than the violators of Shabbos that they think they are protesting.

    Let us recall, for example, how a number of years ago Rav Elyashiv’s car was attacked by stone-throwing zealots who were upset about one of his positions. When Reb Leib Shteinman was in America, his presence was vehemently protested by screaming, disrespectful zealots because they viewed one of his rulings as too lenient and wrong.. Here, excessive frumkeit trounced upon Kavod HaTorah, to say nothing about many other Torah prohibitions. Years ago, Chana Gourary, the eldest daughter of the sixth Lubavitcher Rebbe, was also beaten up badly by someone who felt that she was not frum enough.

    No religious person in his right mind would ever condone such activities. Anyone who had seen her bruised and bloodied face was horrified that a frum Jew could have done such a thing. What is going on Yerushalayim now is no different. The violence is horrific and completely antithetical to what the Gedolim hold.

    A few weeks ago the Jerusalem Post had an interview with Yoelish Krause, a Meah Shaarim-born “community organizer.” [Hmm, shades of president Obama!]. In the interview we hear how he casually discusses the strategic placement of the participants in different geographic locations of a Hafganah.

    What??? Is he serious? If true, the man should be put in Cherem! Anyone who can bring this issue up with Gedolim has a moral obligation to do so. Aside from the massive Chillul Shaim shamayim involved in the violence, there is another reason why our Gedolim should be shown what is being wrought by those whose behavior is antithetical to Torah and its way of life. It is a reason that is extremely important.

    Why? Because we see horrific images and scenes in the religious Muslim world and we are aghast. Two years ago in Afghanistan, religious zealots broke into the home of a headmaster of a school that taught Muslim youth, shot him in front of his wife and eight children and beheaded him.

    Could such extreme actions, chalilah, ever enter our world?

    Historically, has it ever entered our world? What measures can and should be taken to ensure that these strands not develop within our own community, and how can we make sure that at the same time these measures not impede healthy religious growth?

    In other words, we are caught in somewhat of a dilemma. If we, as a community, ignore the phenomenon of “overly frum” there is a danger that it will become too extreme; yet if we condemn things too harshly, we can impede true Torah growth. We want to raise standards, including our own.

    But let’s backtrack and examine whether extreme overly frum behaviors have ever entered our world. Perhaps the first such incident occurs in Parshas Shlach (Bamidbar 14:44): Vayapilu laalos- regretting the fact that they believed the report of the spies, some of the Jews did want to enter the land now.

    Moshe tells them, “No, do not go.”

    They ignore him.

    In their zealotry they ignore the instructions of Moshe Rabbeinu himself and take the “frummer” route. Rashis cites two views as to the connotation of the word Vayapilu – the first is azus – overly bold the second is fog –walking in darkness. (Both are apt and instructive.)

    Shlomo HaMelech also addressed the issue when he wrote in Koheles (7:16), “Al tehi Tzaddik Harbeh – Don’t be overly righteous.” Life is precious. Don’t refuse medical treatment on the Shabbos. Shlomo HaMelech is addressing a pertinent social point. Religious societies will certainly develop strains of individuals with excessive zeal – beyond the norms that the Torah desires.

    And this excess should be condemned – in no uncertain terms.

    The Gemorah in Sotah 21b comments on the Mishna’s statement that a “Chassid Shoteh” destroys the world. What is a “Chassid Shoteh” the Gemorah asks? One who sees a woman drowning and says it is not appropriate for me to look at her to try to save her.

    The Mishna and the Gemorah are clearly addressing relevant issues. The sages felt that there was certainly a need to state that a Chassid shoteh “destroys the world.”

    One can think of no better description of what is happening now in Yerushalayim. The excessive piety that is leading to violence is clearly “destroying the world.”

    The Yerushalmi (3:19) gives another illustration: A child is drowning and the person responds, “When I take off my tefillin then I’ll save him.” The Yerushalmi is giving us a relevant case of warped priorities.

    There is a fascinating Drashos HaRan that guides us as to how a community should actually run. He compares the ideal leadership of a community to the Ktores mixture of the Temple. Just as the Ktores mixture should contain a varied amount of elements to produce the sweet exquisite aroma that the Torah requires, so too should the leadership of a community contain a multiplicity of voices. The leadership should have someone whose tendency may be to be a bit too cheap and someone else who may be a bit of a spendthrift. All together, they will balance each other out and arrive at the correct Torah norm. The point is, however, that although there may be a place for excessive zeal, it should not be allowed to become the dominant voice.

    What is necessary is a working definition of what constitutes “overly frum” and a means to ensure that the effects of such a mindset do not take over in places where they clearly should not. A working definition should of course encompass every case of “overly frum.” It should also be accepted by all segments of the community. The purpose of it of course is not only to maintain our sanity, but to ensure that people will not be hurt by hashkafos that are evil and wrong. And yes, we must stress that they are, in fact, evil.

    We shall attempt a definition:

    Overly Frum – An overly zealous approach to religion that goes beyond and against True Torah norms as manifest in either hate, violence, or extreme actions.

    The concept is not limited to issues of life and death. It can also be applied to overly extreme views in kashrus too (see Shach Yore Deah 90:23).

    The next question of course is: how do we define “True Torah norms?” We must also realize that it is a reality that norms change. Socio-religious mores differ with different times and with different venues. Years ago what might have been construed as “overly frum” has now become today’s Torah norm. Think about it. Once our parents or grandparents all attended Yeshiva dinners with, gulp, mixed dancing. Would it have been considered “overly frum” to have boycotted a mixed dancing affair back then?

    The fact is that True Torah norms can only be defined by listening to our Gedolim and to the poskim to whom we ask our shailos. If we act on our own going beyond and against the advice of our Torah leaders – then we have a problem. Even though at times norms may change, they must be the arbiters of what should and should not be the correct approach to any given socio-religious question.

    Indeed, the Torah already has prescribed safeguards that ensure that things do not go overboard. There is a Mitzvah in the Torah to follow the advice of Gedolim. The Mitzvah, found in Sefer Dvarim (17:11), is “Lo sasuru min hadavar asher yagidu lecha yemin oh smol – do not turn from the matter that they tell you either to the right or to the left.” When it comes to an issue, particularly with a community or with a school or with Shabbos, advice should be sought by the leading sages of Israel.

    The key is to seek their advice, and not to inject one’s own positions and desires for hafganot in which one wishes to later incorporate violence.Thus these questions should be addressed not by politicking and influence peddling, but rather by posing the questions to Torah authorities. After these questions have been posed and answered, the matter should stop, and the decision of the gadol should be respected.

    Some cases in point: A Litvish yeshiva, where many of our local families have grandchildren, has recently taken what seems to be an “overly frum” step. They are restricting enrollment to families where the mother does not drive a car. Now this is a Litvish yeshiva, not a Chassidish one. One can wonder whether this decision was made in consultation with Gedolim or not.

    Another case in point is the violence that is present in these Hafganot. Here there is no question. The Gedolim were clearly not consulted, nor were they told of the excessive behavior. Nor were they told of the strategic placement of the rioters prone to violence.

    Of course another danger lies in how exactly an issue is presented. A skilled practitioner of self-deception can present things to one’s Rav or Posaik in a manner in which one hears what one wishes to hear. At times it may be necessary to present both sides of an issue, and at times it may even pay to have two people present both sides.

    One final thought: Rabbi Horowitz should be given a tremendous Yasher Koach for being so far the only person to have spoken out on the issue. It should not be an issue that exists for a day or two and is forgotten about. The future direction of Klal Yisroel is at stake.

    Rabbi Hoffman can be reached at [email protected]


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    70 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    This is exactly what we wrote for the last two week and some of you jumped on us like we love Chlil Shabbat, it is time to admit your mistake and support only peaceful demonstrations.

    Please Please
    Please Please
    14 years ago

    Are you implying that our Gedolim don’t know what is going on, at these Hafgonos? Would they ever even consider giving a P’sak, without carefully studying the facts? We regular people have to talk to them, to tell them the facts?
    Remember, they are the Gedolim and they carefully study the facts and they lead us with their wisdom.

    PMO
    PMO
    14 years ago

    It is about time that some REAL common sense started to flow here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Rav Horowitz and Rav Hoffman!

    coffee drinker
    coffee drinker
    14 years ago

    Do you really think that rav eliyashiv has no clue that there is violence at hafganos in yerushalayim? Come on. Get real. Rav eliyashiv knew that there were violence at hafganos in yerushalayim even before horowitz had a web site. Heck. Before there was internet at all.when rav Eliyashiv said to go to a hafgana he knew that it would end with some bored instigators starting up with the cops (or bored cops starting up with the yound demonstrators.) He apparently felt that despite the fact that a fringe group of 100 kids out of thirty thousand chareidim would get riled up the benefit of showing barkat that we won’t sit by while he breaks the status quo was the right thing to do

    Askupeh
    Askupeh
    14 years ago

    It’s an old Klal that when things are given over to the masses the Ikur will become a Tofal and the Tofal an Ikur.
    A Kanai is a beautiful thing, Pinchas was rewarded for it, but people have forgotten what a kanai means. A Kanai means Mesiras Nefesh for the Riboinoi Shel Olom. If the action isn’t pure, even if it is correct, it will be considered an Aveiroh. Had Pinchas intentions not been 100 percent pure, he would have been considered a murderer.
    I’ll surprise many with saying that I agree with the gist of the article. A protest should be done properly, and if it can’t, then it shouldn’t take place. Where I take issue is that “overly Frum” is not the problem; overly arrogant is, and arrogance is to be found everywhere, surely no less by overly Frei or overly modern.

    PRO hafganot
    PRO hafganot
    14 years ago

    “One final thought: Rabbi Horowitz should be given a tremendous Yasher Koach for being so far the only person to have spoken out on the issue. It should not be an issue that exists for a day or two and is forgotten about. The future direction of Klal Yisroel is at stake.”

    1. Maybe the fact that that Rabbi Horowitz is the only Rav to come out about this says something about this issue. Maybe other Rabbanim in America are busy with issues in America rather then dealing with issues that American Rabbanim cant even have an impact on. Let the Israeli Rabbanim deal with the Israelis. As for the American’s involved in the Hafganot, maybe a little chinuch from their parents might help. (Or maybe being more controversial: How about rethinking the whole Eretz Yisroel thing)

    2. VIN makes it sound like this is one of the main issues in the Frum world today. Please!!!! How about writing more about TZNIUS, internet addictions, smoking, gambling and the many other URGENT issues that are affecting OUR community DAILY (unlike the WEEKLY Hafganot).

    3. Since when does VIN news represent the frum community? I didnt ask you to say thank you for me and I don’t think anyone else did. The Frum community looks to VIN news for news not for VIN’s opinion.

    NOTE: My comments were in no way intended to demean or bash Rabbi Horowitz. Rabbi Horowitz is extremely Chashuv in my eyes and I intend to bring up these issues with him personally.

    amazed
    amazed
    14 years ago

    Who anointed rabbi horwitz as the spokesman for all of judaism. He lives in america has no clue of the underpinnings of the yerushalyim community. Let him mind his own buisiness and let the real leaders of klal yisrael (the ones that sit and learn all day and don’t write internet articles) lead klal yisrael. It’s easy to sit back in your arm chair in front of your computer and decide what is best for klal yisroel. No achrayus no tough decisions. Making klal decisions are complex and take someone who can work through all the ramifications long term. If rav eliyashiv isn’t capable to make these decisions then horwitz certainly cant

    Common Sense
    Common Sense
    14 years ago

    Thanks to R’ Horowitz & Rav Hoffman! And to VIN for further publicizing their writings. And to #2 : Do you honestly think Rav Elyashiv reads newspapers? That he spends his time watching what’s going on in the streets? I’d guess that he does neither and that most of the other Gedolim don’t either. So yes, to an extent they do need to rely upon others to present them with “facts”. And they carefully study the “facts” they are given. But as Rav Horowitz & Rav Hoffman point out, the “facts” aren’t always facts. And even when they are, 3/4 of the story is sometimes deliberately omitted.

    reb lazer hakuten
    reb lazer hakuten
    14 years ago

    I hate to say this but as far as I can remember the Charedim where not able to achieve anything (i.e. closing streets on Shabbos, Giyus Banos,busses on shabbos etc.) without violence. It is unfortunate but I think the Charedim are dealing with a people who don’t understand another languagepeople

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Dear Amazed (#9),

    The Gedolim backed Rav Horowitz many times. Stop picking on our tzaddikim. You did it to Rav Twersky – and just cut it out already..

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    The Torah says we stone people to death for violating the Shabbos. Your Americanized view of the world has clouded your perspective. Judaism does, in some cases, demand extremism and though I don’t like it I have to live with it.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Now lets see and watch whom the thousands of ehrliche yidden will follow, The great gedolim of EY as Rav Elyashiv, rav Weiss and all other local gedolei Yerushalayim, or Rav Hoffman and rav Horowitz …
    This will be the judge of who are the gedolim that klal yisroel is even considering their opinion.

    Yolish
    Yolish
    14 years ago

    The Satmar rebbe never supported these hafgonas,,its a hefkares for the youth to vent out, there is no leshem shomayim at all ,its about about “Mi berosh” i assert forbid my kids to attend these gatherings and so should other parents also, then maybee these wild demostration hafganos that does not accomplish a thing will stop.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    This has become absurd…iif you read posts 1-20, itts sort of like the “battle of the gadolim”. We are talking about demonstrations which have already resulted in violent behavior and injuries. Its one thing to sign your name to a letter calling for the cancellation of a Lipa concert. These demonstrations are tearing apart klal yisroel and should not be taken so lightly.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Dear twenty,

    Its nice to pit Rav Elyashiv versus Rav Hoffman and Rav Horowitz, but they don’t argue. Remember – Rav Elyashiv said – No violence. There is nothing wrong with saying that Rav Elyashiv is unaware of the garbage cans being stolen by our own American Yeshiva boys.. None of us would have thought they were doing it. Were it not for that ladies post – we wouldn’t have known. Nor does Rav Elyashiv know about it either.. So cut the garbage – and get rid of that sinas chinam to two choshuva Rabbonim…

    dovy
    dovy
    14 years ago

    99.9% of the demnstraters acted in a refined, peaceful manner. It was a true kiddush Hashem. I should know. I was there, unlike Hoffman and Horowitz. By dwelling on the .1% who got a little too boisterous, they are playing right into the hands of the anti-semotes. SHAME ON HOROWITZ!
    The police, on the other hand, were brutal monsters. Hitting, beating and arresting with no chershbon whatsoever besideshate and violence. That is the true crime that should be spoken out against. No Brave writer has had the guts to do it. Horowitz is not brave he is a carear panderer, making a living from looking for the bad in “those ugly Jews”

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Many commenters here seem to grasp something while others don’t. Our gedolim are just that. Great Talmidei chachomim whose Torah guidance is the beacon that we need to pilot our way through this dark galus. However, it is not kefira to state that we cannot rely on our chachomim to guide us through ruach hakodesh. If any of them have some additional sense that makes them privy to information that is not otherwise in our grasp, that may be a great advantage. But it borders on kefira to rely on this when presenting them with a shailoh. One must present shailos for psak halacha and for advice too gedolim with all the details available. If the response seems to emanate from another dimension, so be it. Poskim who respond to medical shailos must be given the understanding of the entire medical matter, not just whether the doctor says to perform surgery or not. The same goes for the many areas of halacha and science. Information must be presented for the psak or hadracha to be worth anything.

    When the tragedies of the past week are examined, one sees the blindness which was imposed on the gedolim. If asked about whether one could be violent, there is no doubt that the answer would have prohibited it totally. No one asked, and no gadol addressed the unasked shailos. The finger then turns to us and how we seek to use gedolim to meet our needs. Something is backwards – the tail wagging the dog – pardon the metaphor. We finally have two Rabbonim, Rav Horowitz and Rav Hoffman who are willing to tell it like it is. Yasher Kochachem.

    And for those who feel that Rav Horowitz is mixing into issues in Eretz Yisroel, calm down. He is speaking to all of us, Americans and other non-Israelis. We all must look at the events that occurred, and we need to learn what was right and what was wrong. Sometimes similar issues happen in USA. There are lessons to learn on both sides of the ocean.

    As far as the choices of articles on VIN, all the ones suggested appear frequently. There have been articles on gambling, internet addiction, tznius, smoking, etc. Within the past month. VIN carries articles and editorials on news items, and this article certainly qualifies.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    מי שרואה חילול שבת וליבו אינו כואב וצועק בידוע שלא עמדו רגלי אבותיו על הר סיני

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    And the choshuve gedolim of E.Y. know all of those blitzes and brainstorms, and they still order the hafgonot, so let those columnist rabbis write whatever they want, and the leading rabbonim in E.Y. will do whatever they they want and feel is important.

    Yaakov W.
    Yaakov W.
    14 years ago

    These gedolim may have a chochmah here that isn’t obvious. They may be preparing their people for mass disobedience against the regime for when the time is “ripe.” They may be “training” their people on these “smaller” issues, helping them to be comfortable clashing with the authorities. It’s very emotionally stressful to be on the front lines against battalions of police officers using riot control techniques; a person might also be physically injured, possibly severely. It’s necessary for leaders to create an esprit de corps and the requisite emotional capacity for possibly sustaining injury. If and when these gedolim decide the time is ripe, these individuals will be prepared for the task their gedolim assign

    We should assume this possibility is valid because the gedolim of today continue the tradition of the sages of the gemara, who we know were involved diplomacy, statesmanship, and military strategy and consultation.

    CHAIM
    CHAIM
    14 years ago

    rabbi Horowitz,a voice of sanity in an insane asylum called chareidi society.
    and unfortunately i myself is a member of that society

    HOSTAGES
    HOSTAGES
    14 years ago

    Sad to say, and don’t jump, Our Gedolim are HOSTAGES of the ASKONIM! This about it and you’ll see it in ever Kol Koire!

    ZR
    ZR
    14 years ago

    Thank You VIN for publishing this! Finally we get a clearer picture of the inside story.

    As I was saying all along for the past 2 weeks, the 1% of violence in a “peaceful” protest is enough to cause a massive chillul Hashem which just pushes Yidden away from Yiddishkeit.

    The only way to confront chillul shabbos is the long hard road of Kiruv. It doesn’t happen over-night. It takes thousands and millions of man-hours to get somewhere. But the end of the day we see tangible results. It’s the only way to accomplish getting Yidden to keep Shabbos and avoid the chillul Hashem of the 1% who don’t listen to Rav Elyashiv explicitly forbidding violence.

    ZR
    ZR
    14 years ago

    Thank You VIN for publishing this! Finally we get a clearer picture of the inside story.

    As I was saying all along for the past 2 weeks, the 1% of violence in a “peaceful” protest is enough to cause a massive chillul Hashem which just pushes Yidden away from Yiddishkeit.

    The only way to confront the terrible calamity of chillul shabbos is the long hard road of Kiruv. It doesn’t happen over-night. It takes thousands and millions of man-hours to get somewhere. But the end of the day we see tangible results. It’s the only way to accomplish getting Yidden to keep Shabbos and avoid the chillul Hashem of the 1% who don’t listen to Rav Elyashiv explicitly forbidding violence.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    were was Rabbi Horowitz when PM Rabin was killed? wasent that a act like the muslems?

    jancsi
    jancsi
    14 years ago

    #35 you hit the nail on its head you are 100% right the chareidi society is trying to mantain outwardly that they are sane when everything points in the opposite direction

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    rabbi horowits is correct,

    but for the american bocurim who were walking back from the koseel motoei shabbos and were grabbed by the police and accused of throwing a stone when they didnt, or being phyiscally abused by the police officers who just dont put restraints, they even punch them. Where is the justification of the system, the judge wont let them out on bail for another two weeks and in some cases they are deporting the bocuhrim as a plea bargin. The american bochurim in jail are denying they threw a rocks and witeneses have come forth to say that htey were not involved. In one case the bochur had to use self defence because the police officer was beating him. Some of the police officers were undercover and just garbbed anyone in the area even though the bochurim deny they were involved they were arrested. Askanim in israel has never seen such harshness and coldness from the police.

    in israel its your guilty until you confess.

    Ojoe
    Ojoe
    14 years ago

    Which yeshiva requires the mothers to not drive?

    Tired of the Black and White Attitude
    Tired of the Black and White Attitude
    14 years ago

    I mostly agreed with Hoffman’s article but lost all respect for him when he conivingly entered his own narrow view of poltics in the US.

    A few weeks ago the Jerusalem Post had an interview with Yoelish Krause, a Meah Shaarim-born “community organizer.” [Hmm, shades of president Obama!].

    I ask Hoffman, did President Obama ever engage in violence? You are typical of any of the other political and radical Charedi Rabbis. The only difference is that in regard to this story you must have figured that you have a greater chance of fame by going against the grain. You obviously felt it too difficult to compete with Rabbi Eliyahiv for the fame if you went along with his psak.

    Shades of Gray

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Rabbi Horowitz is not a posek, and should not be considered in the same way our poskim are.
    Those protests are done by the psack of Rav Tuvia Weiss who has a Daas Torah and only someone like him (i.e. Rav Elyashuv, Rav Steinman, Rav Aurbach etc.) can say an appinion on it.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    We need more voices of sanity like this. Thanks Rabbi Horowitz

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    I would love to see rabbi horowitzs article on the Mekoshesh Eitzim where HASHEM said to stone him ?

    anonymous
    anonymous
    14 years ago

    First settle who is posik. Next how about a Hafgana for koved habrius and bein adom l’chavero. Don’t be so worried about bein adom lamokom try to display more koved habrius and koved for any yid haloni or dati

    The Biggest ovrei aveira are the demonstrators
    The Biggest ovrei aveira are the demonstrators
    14 years ago

    Anyone can put on a bekishe… the Beis Hamikdash was not destroyed because of people who were mechalel shabbos, definitly not Tinok shenishba. But the sinas chinam which these people are malei vegadush in (albeit in a lange levish) is far worse an aveira than the sins they are demonstrating against. The true chotim of klal yisroel today are not the ones who were raised in a non-frum environment, the true Chotim of our generation, are those who garb themselves in holiness, yet practice the worst of aveiros — sina, and are mechalel shem shamayim berabim.

    Shoel Umaishiv
    Shoel Umaishiv
    14 years ago

    Rav Elyashiv lived in Meah Shearim his whole life and he knows exactly what happens at a hafganah , And so do all the other Rabonim This has been the way in yerushaliam for the past 60 years , and the MInhag Hamokom ,As for Rabbi Horowitz Should do more research , Unfortunately Under the Akirai Hdaas Goverment This has been a means of keeping up the status quo ,
    Look at the Great kiddush Hashem which comes out of a Hafganah: All over the world Yidden are saddened and talk about the chillul Shabbos Hamalkah , True Kiddush Shomayim!
    Hisnari Ma,Offer,… Kumi Livshi Bigdaych Tifarti….!!!! Bimiharah Amen!!