Jerusalem – Orthodox Rabbi Wants Charedi Attitude Towards Gays Changed

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    Rabbi Menachem BursteinJerusalem – The impending halakhic ruling to allow religious gay men to marry women and have children while not forcing them to keep their homosexuality a secret may seem like a rare sign of liberalism in the Orthodox establishment. On the other hand, it may paradoxically be a reinforcement of the wall of halakha.

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    The initiative was unveiled by Rabbi Menachem Burstein, head of the Jewish fertility organization Puah Institute, at a conference titled “Parenthood at any cost?” at the Center for Health Law and Bioethics at Ono Academic College. It is revolutionary especially in the willingness of Orthodox rabbis, including hardliners like Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, to even discuss such matters with the intention of actually helping a group that many rabbis are not even prepared to acknowledge even exists.

    The ruling, which is still under consultation, allows a religious gay man, who is committed to keeping mitzvahs, marry a woman with the understanding that he is not physically attracted to her and that whatever children they have together will be conceived either artificially or through sexual relations that will have only that target.

    At the same time, that man will be allowed to maintain a relationship with his gay partner on the condition that he will not have forbidden sexual intercourse with him and will undergo counseling with therapists of Atzat Nefesh, an organization whose stated purpose is to “treat” religious gays and lesbians.

    As Burstein explained to me this week, there are two underlying principles to the ruling. The first is that as a religious fertility institute, “we are committed to finding a solution for every part of society” and the second, regarding homosexuals is, “a rabbi cannot change the prohibition of mishkav zachar [intercourse between two males], it is from the Torah. Once that is accepted, then we can look for a solution within those parameters,” he said.

    While a number of religious couples have already married with these conditions, the official ruling has still not been given as Burstein is anxious to consult with child psychologists to hear their view on whether children can be happily raised in these circumstances.

    Things are not so clear-cut, though. There is an argument regarding the attitude towards religious homosexuals among Orthodox rabbis, mainly those belonging to the national-religious community. (Among Ashkenazi Haredi rabbis, homosexuality is a taboo subject never to be discussed publicly; among Sephardi Haredis, it is mentioned as a disgusting sickness to be regarded with pity, at best.)

    More liberal-minded rabbis, like Yuval Cherlow, are willing to accept more modern psychological views that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice and maintain that everything should be done to make gay religious men and women feel welcome within their communities.

    The more conservative rabbis, exemplified by Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, also preach compassion, but insist that homosexuality is a problem that can ultimately be solved by what they describe as “proper” therapy. Burstein, who on most matters is firmly in the conservative camp, is careful not to support either side in the debate.

    “Having homosexual urges in not a sin,” he said. “Giving in to them is. It’s just like someone who has an urge to steal, as long as he fights that urge why should we blame him?”

    He is also careful not to censure homosexual love, as long as it includes sexual abstinence.

    “There is nothing wrong with a close and loyal friendship between two men living with each other,” he said, just as long as they don’t succumb to the temptation of mishkav zachar.

    But he believes that in actuality, the number of “real” homosexuals is small. “Most men with these feelings, if they were to go for counseling with a real intention of not being homosexual, would find a way, but there are those who will always remain frustrated, or not really want to take the therapy,” he said. “I believe these are a small number, but we should not forsake them.”

    Not that he is in favor of them coming out of the closet.

    “I am not telling them what to do but in my opinion, it would be better for all concerned that they didn’t make a big noise about their tendencies, like going on gay parades. I say to them, remain in the closet and I will make every effort to build as large and respectable a closet as possible for you.”

    Liberal-minded readers are certainly tut-tutting at this point at the rabbi who is intent on repressing gay people, signaling to young religious homosexuals that they have something to be ashamed of. And you don’t have to be a radical gay rights activist to object to many of his views on the subject.

    But he is a realist and he is also one of the few rabbis to have succeeded in receiving the tacit approval of the most senior Haredi rabbis of all streams to a series of rulings on the most sensitive subjects. None of these rabbis are about to transform their views on homosexuality, but even a small change is significant.

    For many religious people, halakha is an immovable object. Certainly that is the case when it comes to prohibitions that are set out in the Torah with no room for interpretation. So what do you do if you are indeed a gay man yet believe that the act you yearn for is also an abomination before God?

    Rabbi Burstein’s effort will not relieve that unbearable tension, but it is at least the first open attempt by the Orthodox establishment in Israel to acknowledge its existence and find at least some ways to alleviate it


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    75 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Reply to #20
    Excuse me, but you wrote a very big am haratzos. The lav of “vlo sasuru” certainly applies only to having bad thoughts of “znus” and “apikursos”, not stealing. However, normally when one mentions this prohibition one would thing of a man having thoughts of a woman, so the Chinuch (and an other rishon, which I don’t remember off hand) makes it clear that the same issur applies to woman thinking about men and to men about other men.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    This Haaretz article is a complete mischaracterization of the facts.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Having a good friend has nothing to do with homosexuality

    The Masked Maven
    The Masked Maven
    14 years ago

    “Having homosexual urges in not a sin,” he said. “Giving in to them is. It’s just like someone who has an urge to steal, as long as he fights that urge why should we blame him?”

    While respecting Rabbi Aviner highly, it is pretty clear that there is a prohibition in allowing one’s mind to reflect upon homosexual urges. The verse in the Torah says, “Velo sasuru acharei levachem veachafrei ainaychem.” The Mishna Brurah rules that while if the thought pops up in one’s head there is no sin, allowing it to linger is definitely a sin. This is in the first siman of Shulchan Aruch.

    This whole solution is predicated upon the idea that the homosexual is not violating velo sasuru acharei ainaychem. Since the Mishna Brurah rules that it isa violation, I doubt Rav Elyashiv will sign off on it.

    psychologist
    psychologist
    14 years ago

    It’s important to realize that ALL people have strange urges (same-sex attraction being one of them). But, like the article implies, it is the yetzer hora, just like the desire to steal. Therapy is a must, but I fear that, lehavdil, just like there are psycopaths who murder and kleptomaniacs who can’t control their stealing, there are also those who can’t control their sexual urges. But since the Torah forbids acting on such urges, it is certainly lifnei iver from a psychological point of view to endorse two men living together who have these urges. I’ll leave the paskining up to the poiskim, but I assume halacha would hold it’s lifnei iver as well.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    i predicit burstien will be put in charem

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    whose the loser that gets to marry these guys?????how desperate r they?????????

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    what women will agree to this kind of marriage?

    Can they be cured?
    Can they be cured?
    14 years ago

    Time Magazine had once published the following:

    ” One reason why homosexuals are so rarely cured is that they rarely try treatment. Too many of them actually believe that they are happy and satisfied the way they are.

    Another reason, says Philadelphia’s Dr. Samuel B. Hadden, is that too many psychiatrists are still inhibited by the 45-year-old pessimism of Freud, who was convinced that the condition was discouragingly difficult to treat.

    Even when psychiatrists do try to aid homosexuals, their efforts are likely to be ineffectual because they themselves have so little confidence of success.

    Both patients and doctors are wrong, Dr. Hadden told the American Group Psychotherapy Association in San Francisco last week. “

    Ahem
    Ahem
    14 years ago

    Way to build families of dysfunction.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    This appears to be a practical solution to a growing problem in Isarael that I suspect most orthosox rabbonim will utitimately emabrace.

    Truth
    Truth
    14 years ago

    Let them get help first -then get married. There are plenty of normal old buchirim around for these women to marry, they don’t have to marry queers. Also, how could you trust them? The halacha clearly states that yichud is ossur with a man to man where there are these type of inclinations. It sounds like he ( Burnstein) wants to help, but he is misguided. Also, to call someone a Rabbi, who believes the psychologists view that you are born with this type of feelings is ludicrous. Not that long ago, the mental health community held the toeiva lifestyle was a mental illness, but they changed due to the militant gays and political pressure!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Kol Hakovod to Rav Burtstein. He shows more common sense than most of the rabbonim who bury their heads in the ssand and make believe this problem doesn’t exist. He shows the path towards reconciling halacha with the frailities of the human soul

    Green
    Green
    14 years ago

    while there are many questions that can arrise from such an arrangment – as in who would want to marry gay men? and are we not putting a stumbling block b4 the blind when we encourage 2 gay men to live t/g etc…The concept and idea that this Rabbi is addressing is revelutionary and should be condoned. Finally a Rabbi realizing that this issue exists and tries (albeit not very well) to help these men. Kol HaKavod to the Rabbi. There should be more Rabbis like him. Rabbis who see issues that need to be addressed – and dont shy away and pretend they don’t exist.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Any Rabbi that makes this sick kind of “kidushin” should be stripped of his smicha. This is NOT the principle of kidushin….it says in parshat Ki Savo (next week’s parsha) that Israelite women are not to be used for znus and I am SURPRISED that during this time of year…near slichos and near asarei yemei teshuva “rabbis” would even suggest such vileness to infect Jewish homes, which are supposed to be “batei ne’emanim”.

    rachel
    rachel
    14 years ago

    it won’t work if the man doesn’t have any love for his wife…its basically an abusive marriage emotionally for her if he has a “friend” who he sees on the side, and it’s confusing to the children

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Why on earth would. Woman agree to marry a man who will never be attracted to her? The article clearly states that he may go elsewhere for a relationship while married to her but what is she to do for a meaningful relationship? How can rabbonim suggest such marriages when one party will be forever miserable? Are the feelings and needs of the woman irrelevant? Why is the gay male to have the best of both worlds while she will suffer loneliness forever?

    shmiel glassman
    shmiel glassman
    14 years ago

    #14 - your comment is naive, ask almost any godol that is osek beklal if hes burying his head -my suggestion ” hevei misavek beafar ragleihem”
    the majority of FRUM people struggling with this feelings fall into 3 categories in percent order
    those that are “bi” – meaning they are attracted to both & on the conscious level the male attraction is greater, most of these people with the right guidance can tip the scale so that the hetero.. is grows & the homo diminishes ( that can opnly be done if you’re married /the next group are those that had very bad relationships with their own father “its too long too explain in this blog” the next group is really a form of OCD (HOCD) where the thought is intrusive & not really attracted . the smallest percentage are “the real homos”
    its a real rachmonus on all of them – JONAH is a good org. that helps yiddin that are struggling

    Tanna Kamma
    Tanna Kamma
    14 years ago

    A recipe for disaster, I pity any kid born into such a sorry situation, not to mention a woman who allows herself to be cheapened in such a manner.

    MDshweks
    MDshweks
    14 years ago

    Did you notice the contradiction?

    “…it is mentioned as a disgusting sickness to be regarded with pity, at best. More liberal-minded rabbis, like Yuval Cherlow, are willing to accept more modern psychological views that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice…”

    Hey, “sickness” is not a “choice”?!

    Leah
    Leah
    14 years ago

    I bet he meant to say they should marry a lesbian and play house. So many gays and lesbians marry each other nowadays and have kids etc. It is sad to see so many inane comments. Do you even know what torment these people live with? Hiding and playing straight is worse than gehenim!

    Therapy won’t change someone’s sexuality. Just like therapy won’t turn a straight person gay. Why does he only mention gay men? What about those lesbians who have no support whatsoever?

    MDshweks
    MDshweks
    14 years ago

    Imagen all those with the urge to steal will creat a union, and will march in time square pleading their case that they simply have an urge and that they are born that way… and after 10-20 years they become a whole ‘community’, with liberal psycologists and the Media at their calling, and before you know it you’ll have “Rabbis” saying we have to accept them as a way of life, “not to bury our heads in the sand”…

    What would happen to the last decendant of King David who was lost in the dessert, and was being threatenned by a mob to run him over had he not burried himself in the sand???

    ShatzMatz
    ShatzMatz
    14 years ago

    This article is obviuosly a continuation of a previous article dealing with the issue of lesbian woman not marrying, yet trying to bear children via IVF. This is just a suggestion on how to resolve many of these issues at the same time. It will allow the lesbian women and gay men have halahically kosher children who can be called to the torah with their father’s name, and at the same time prevent marriages where only one partner is gay and the other partner condemed to a loveless marriage.

    Since the torh as not paved a clear path for that segment of society dealing with these issues, a little innovation becomes neccessary.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    In the sheva brochos, the couple is blessed with “Grant joy to these beloved companions”. The “relationship” suggested would be making this brocho a brocho l’vatala.

    PMO
    PMO
    14 years ago

    First of all, anyone using words like “homo” and “queer” cannot possibly make a rational argument because hatred is clearly the driving force. Such disgusting and dehumanizing language should have no place in a rational discussion.

    In years past, men would marry and have secret, illicit affairs with other men. That is how homosexuality was practiced all over the world, and in all the major religions as well. Today, we understand more about these people and these toavos. If we can recognize the intense inclination that they have as “legitimate”, we can certainly find compassion as well.

    I don’t know if this guy has the right answer, but at least he is willing to try. I can see why gay men and women would sign up for this. They too want to have families, and want to be on the side of Torah. Perhaps some honesty between them is the way to go. Imagine if you had to live your life every single day as if you were an actor in a play…. never being honest with anyone…. even your wife. That sounds like a terrible life to me. Let’s see this man’s results and then judge.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    For some reason, my original 2 posts were not allowed on:
    1. Just like there are gay men, there are woman like that as well. The simple solution would have such a woman marry such a man.
    2. Is there an Issur Yichud for 2 such men to be together?
    I write this in all seriousness and not as a random joke – please post.