New York, NY – If the most powerful component of domestic abuse is the issue of control, then the ultimate component of the control issue in Jewish marriages is get-refusal. In a case of an abusive relationship, the woman in keeping with Jewish tradition, who has finally come to the decision that she must dissolve her marriage, can become the victim of continued abuse by her husband’s refusal to grant her a Jewish divorce [get].
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The woman who is a victim of get-refusal is a modern-day aguna [literally, anchored]. As awareness of the aguna problem increases, confusion and questions are on the rise. As of late, the first signs of skepticism have come to light in both the American-Jewish and Israeli press. The question posed – generally by males- is: “how many agunot are there? Is it worthwhile investing resources in a problem that has not been quantified?”
Attempts to offer a numerical answer to this question are doomed to fail. Skeptics will always counter with a contradictory “statistic.”
Women’s organizations in Israel report numbers ranging from “thousands” (with no substantiation presented) to 100,000 who are or have been victims of get-refusal in Israel (Bar-Ilan University’s Rackman Center based on a scientific telephone survey). On the other hand, Director of the Rabbinical Courts Eliahu Ben-Dahan reports that in 2008, there were 180 cases of women who were victims of get-refusal, while there were 190 cases of men in that position.
The gap between the two approaches is obvious.
THE ROOT of the argument is two-fold: Firstly, each body providing statistics defines “victim of get-refusal” (as opposed to the traditional aguna whose husband has disappeared) in a different manner. Sometimes a given body will not even be clear about the definition within itself.
The rabbinical courts will count the number of files that are open longer than a given period – perhaps a year or two – and in which the husband has remained recalcitrant. The courts will also include cases in which a severe ruling has been issued against the husband obligating him to grant the get. But this definition can be countered with a variety of questions, such as: What about cases that dragged on so long that the women just gave up? Those cases are closed due to inactivity and are not included in the statistical survey of active cases in a given year. And what about cases where the wife sues for a divorce, but refuses to give up her legal rights? Many times the courts would not consider her an aguna at all.
The women’s organizations would actually agree with these two narrow definitions of the rabbinical courts, but would broaden it to include more complicated and even subtle circumstances.
The rabbinical courts can only count a case if a file has been opened. The system cannot possibly be aware and cannot be expected to be aware of a woman who has not filed for divorce.
Many women who are too frightened to turn to the court for relief do not exist statistically from the court’s point of view. But this type of woman may turn to women’s organizations or lawyers for advice. Likewise the woman who is willing to pay any price – even forfeiting her legal rights financially and custodial rights to children – to gain her freedom through the get.
That woman rightfully feels that she is a victim, even though she comes before the court in a supposed “amicable divorce” with a prepared agreement. The room for discrepancy between the attempts at statistical examinations is great.
Secondly, it is not possible to actually and accurately count the numbers of agunot and victims of get-refusal no matter the definition. Many such women have lived quietly, in shame. Only recently, due to consciousness raising by both rabbis and aguna activists, have many women come to the understanding that the burden of shame is not for them to bear – but is rather solely the liability of the recalcitrant husband.
SINCE THE question of numbers engenders such controversy – with each side firmly entrenched in its own stance with no possibility of convincing the other – I propose that we steer the topic onto a different but close course which bypasses the numbers issue. In other words, the focus should be on the principle and the potential for harm which may worsen from generation to generation. Many points of substance are in agreement by all sides concerned. Through discussion of these points progress can be made toward solving the aguna problem – a result desired by the rabbinical establishment, the women’s organizations and the Jewish public at large.
The principle is clear: It is an untenable situation that Jewish women can be held captive in a marriage from which they have exited emotionally as well as in a practical manner, but are not able to exit in a formal manner; that once married, Jewish women essentially have no right to determine their personal status; that to attain the possibility of remarriage a women can be held up for an outrageous price; and even that a given individual, the husband, is more powerful than the rabbinical court which cannot dissolve the marriage against his will.
These principles should be spoken about on the foundations of the points upon which everyone agrees: Everyone agrees that there are victims of get-refusal (especially Diaspora rabbis); everyone has read rabbinical statements that the incidence of get-refusal has gone up in these last generations, everyone agrees that there is great potential at this point of women leaving the faith and bringing mamzerim into the world unable to marry within the general Jewish community; everyone agrees that victims of get-refusal and agunot together with their families undergo great human and religious suffering.
Therefore the outcry should be against the very possibility of such instances arising. The outrage should be against the untold suffering of the modern-day aguna. All those who relate to the aguna problem would do well to turn their focus from the question of numbers to the proposals for and implementation of solutions. If Jewish society stays fixated on the question of how many agunot there are, then indeed there will be so many that there will be no possibility of ever answering the question.
The tone of the article seems to be written as if to suggest that there is something unfair with the Torah, ch”v.
Deracheha darchei noam – while we may not understand the reasons behind halachos, there is no way that they can be charactarized as “unfair” and a situation which the “rabbis need to deal with”. Obviously, an agunah is in a terrible situation, and anything that can be done to convince the husband to give the get (assuming that there is no valid reason that he is withholding it) should be done. However, no one has the right to say that the women are stuck in an unfair situation, or to even suggest that the rules should be bent due to the possibility that they will ch”v become non-frum and produce mamzeirim. And guess what? Even if some so-called “rabbis” come up with an artificial solution, the kids will STILL be mamzeirim – in fact, there would be even more – and people won’t know, leading to generations of aveiros.
I am not unsympathetic. But we live al pi Torah – let’s not look for ways around it.
But don’t forget about all the men who can’t get a divorce or get from their wives without giving up all the rights to the children!!!.
the problem of the modern-day Agunah is nothing short of a “feminist agenda”. this article doesnt take into fact all those cases where the woman acted aggressively in the civil courts and “stole” from the husband their fatherly rights accorded to them by the Torah. Then they expect a GeT to be delivered on a silver platter while they can abuse their husbands with false order of protection etc.. you also have phony Agunah who refuse to pick up a GET so they can feign to be Agunahs and organize rallies against their husbands to further torture him.
Sometimes the husbands are the victims of a nasty wife. The wife wants out, makes false accusations against her husband, gets court orders against him, demands more money than he can afford, etc. I know of several cases.
well in the community where I live thank g-d we don’t have to many get issue but the bad news is that we have a few including one really bad case where the wife had to run away to Israel with some of her kids because she was scary that her husband would take her kids by force and the fact that he had a support network to help him out is even more scary she was barely an emergent so her only choice was to run and now she’s on an FBI watch list because her sick husband said she kidnapped her american kids
While not agonot in the halachic definition a lot of women end up in a get limbo because they make false charges against their former husbands:namely that they sexually abused their children and have them jailed and humliated by getting supervised child visitation. When the charges are proven false after an expensive legal process these women then demand a get without willing to take responsiblility or showing remorse for their evil actions. Bais Din in these cases requires that the wifes acknowledge what they did and take responsibility for their actions. It is the reluctance to acknowledge and face the consequence of what they did that keeps some of them in get limbo. But that is their decision and they have to live with it.
I know of a case where the wife did not hesitate to have her husband arrested on later proven false charges, ignored all the Rabbonon and Bais Din but now is crying I want my get unconditionally.
Why is everyone so defensive and quick to blame the article of feminism or blame nasty wives? Let’s not ignore the huge problem where women don’t have a lot of voice in many divorce cases.
My friend was also falsely accused of abusing his child and was cleared after expensive litigation. Now she wants the get but does not want to reimburse him for his legal expenses and ignores Daas Torah to do so. Should such an evil woman be entitled an unconditional get? Should her name and her attorney’s name who specializes in this dirty false abuse business be made public? I would like to hear feedback.
The unwillningess of many “gadolim” to acknowledge the problem of agunot or to minimize its severity is the real issue. We don’t need precise statistics to know this is a critical problem to klal yisroel that has to be addressed. The fact that some abusive men use the get as a form of economic blackmail is the least of the problem. There are some disgusting examples where rabbonim are complicit with these abusive actions by failing to employ every form of pressure possible to extract a get. To blindly stick their heads in the sand and say “we cannot do anything under halacha” is only to perpetuate the scandal.
it seems one thing is for sure something has to b done.there is mistreatment on both sides. and there should b some way of controling wat happens. but I doubt anything will b done. b/c each has their opion and they will only stick to that side.
Let’s try a bit of reality on for size. The Torah dictates the halacha that it is the husband that grants the get to the wife. It is only by Takonas Rabbenu Gershom that this cannot be done against her will. This situation puts the bulk of control over the issuance and delivery of the get in the power of the husband. While a get that is against the will of the wife is possible under certain circumstances, it is more difficult for a get to be valid when it is against the will of the husband. In Beis Din, this automatically grants an upper hand to husband.
The dictates of halacha do not spell out what is ethically and morally correct. There are times when morality is clear that the husband must grant the get. When a Beis Din rules as such, there can be teeth to this if he refuses to obey the psak. However, this results only in possible consequences for him, but does nothing to free the wife from the marriage.
In reality, marriages break apart because of negative feelings, not love and devotion. Either party is likely to exact blood and tears from the other. The likelihood is that they will each try to take some “parting shots”, such as monetary demands above and beyond division of assets and child support, accusations that involve criminal court such as abuse, orders of protection, etc. While any accusation must be evaluated and investigated, a great many of these that occur within the throes of the divorce process are fabricated as “parting shots”.
As an askan in marital cases, I have witnessed many completely false claims of spouse abuse, orders of protection, and demands for supervised visitation, all to humiliate the ex-spouse. Unfortunately, both the beis din and secular court system tend to respond with the reaction, “Tsk, tsk, too bad.” And I fault both systems for this. Falsehood should be tolerated by no one anywhere. What use is a beis din or court system when honesty is less than impeccably perfect?
This article addresses the global problem of the agunah. No one should doubt that the problem exists, is growing, and is way too prevalent. My involvement is limited to the connection to specific cases, and is thus free of statistics. And no two cases are the same. There are evil men out there who are recalcitrant, hold the get for ransom, and make otherwise outrageous demands. Many of these men threaten to obtain a heter me’ah to legitimize their granting of a get without any settlement. There are also women out there that play similar games, manipulating the system in their favor. I have no idea which is more common. All of these evil people need a quick spanking (just a figure of speech), and there are few to no resources in the community to accomplish that.
I also do not know where to put the burden of remedy to these tragic situations. The court and its various agencies can do only minimal to assist with the “get”. Batei Din are known for being notoriously ineffective in this, having no powers of enforcement. What no one wants to hear, and I shudder with this thought during Elul, is that there are corrupt Rabbonim and Batei Din. A psak that goes against what someone feels is correct is not evidence of corruption. But I have encountered some that are plainly dishonest, rule without a baal din being present or heard, and writing documents that are unfounded and false. Some Rabbonim know some of these rackets. Regardless, if we lack an effective system of Batei Din that emulate the midas emes which is “chosomoh shel Hakadosh Boruch Hu”, the picture ain’t pretty.
The problem of agunah is real, and it needs to be analyzed carefully, together with the elements that make it possible. We need to help so many men and women that are stuck in these unresolved marriages.
Where are the ‘frum’ ‘rabbis’ and the ‘schools’ to educate boys (and girls) early on in junior high & high school about healthy male / female relationships? If the ‘rabbis’ would stop being busy with Lipa, and concentrate on real education (all the ‘learning’ means nothing if it is not practically put into every day useful experience& actions). Why not explain to the young ones what true love is? Why is Judaism so sexist? It is squarely the fault of the parents, teacher, rabbis.. who set bad examples.. Children are only children and need to be taught by example form real adults..
If jews would not get married when in high school or barley out of it.. then they would be more mature.. What ever happened to the concept of ‘aishet chayil”..??? Are the men really singing it to their wives on friday nights by looking them in the eye, or are they mumbling it under their breaths half – heartedly while their wives are not even in the room? (in the kitchen.. preparing & serving to the lazy good for nothing husbands who think they are kings and don’t lift a finger to help?)
I had the unfortunate experience of having my youngest soncome home after less than six months of marriage. Proffessionals attested to the fact that his ex was not emotionally in good health. Yet they proceeded legally to try and extract large some of monies,refused to go to a Beis Din. Only after they lost the legal battle at great cost to us,only then did they respond to the Hazmanha and wanted everything handed to them on a silver platter,without any conditions. The bottom line,when a marriage is not successful it is not the husband who is always at fault. The percentages for responsibility or placing blame is probablly equal. What is important is that if the wife is orthodox and Jewish and wants a Get,which requires a Beis Din, she should proceed to Beis Din. Beis Din will decide according to Halacha all the pertinent matters relating to the Get. The wife can not have her cake and eat it as well. She can’t use the Beis Din to obtain the Get and then proceed to court for all the other matters. Most of the men that are withholding a Get from their wives fit into the above situation.Religious Jews have no business taking their Marital or other issues into a legal forum unless consented to ba Beis Din in writing.The majority of those following this advise complete the Get process in a relatively short time.Finally,withholding children from their father is no less a sin than withholding a Get.
a woman cant have it both ways. if she wants a GET which is a halachic based process, then she must follow halacha. those that think that they can commit Mesira and Gezeila by wrongfully going to the courts without reimbursing him for his losses dont deserve a Get. Judaism does not approve of “delective Judaism”. you either follow the dictates of halocho or forget about halocho and remarry without a GEt!
i have been doing family care and divorces over 25 years and there more agunim than agunos. some women become so vicious they rob their husbands against torah law.
The rabonim would help more if those wicked women who run these agunah orgs would disapprear. The second the woman goes to those ppl for help and thinks they’re her friends is the last time she will get the real help she needs.
reply to #12 . besides for the chiruf & giduf your ignorance is appaling- you obviously have never been involved with an agunah except maybe your own. when your child knocks over a glass of milk do you also blame it on the gedolim. you’ve definatley lost any chelek in O”H I’d spend the rest of my days cooling off gehenom if I was you
Exactly what constitutes “abuse”? Today, abuse means that “my husband is a jerk.” I don’t mean domestic violence – I’m talking about the “emotional abuse” that all too often is alleged by unhappy wives. Very rarely is anything these women allege objectively abusive.
“I am not unsympathetic. But we live al pi Torah – let’s not look for ways around it.”
No doubt you’d use a pruzbul or shtar iska without worrying you’re “getting around” the Torah. You may not be unsympathetic, maybe, but you’re sure too frummie to think about the problem.
as one who went true a divorce i can say, i almost left my x-wife an Aguna, after she made fun at the beginning of our separation, and didn’t want take a Get from me, because she was thinking that people will stand up for her because she has this key word Aguna, so she can do what ever she wants because i wont be able to leave her an Aguna, but thanks to Hashem at the end she saw that people are not buying her Aguna baloney, and she came down the tree asking for a Get after she realized that soon she will be an Aguna, so i think its very right to use method of leaving her as an Aguna, as a threaten in order to give a Get with condition you want to.
Everyone fights for AGUNOT, but few people care about AGUNIM (husbands that their wife either refuses to accept the GET or after giving a GET, hostages of legal divorce for years).
I am married to a person who is fighting with his soon-to-be-ex-wife (or is it never-to-be-ex-wife) in courts for more than 5 years. And I am a victim of the ex-wife lie spreading, name calling, constant attacks against me and my husband. Every step we do has to be carefully calculated, even going to a vacation has to be coordinated with the court schedule.
And the most painful part is that there are people who give money for her to fight in courts. Instead of condemning her actions and banning her from the community she actually gets away with her lies, time after time.
I feel really bad for AGUNOT, but because women like her we will have more and more AGUNOT in the future. Why? Because now husbands will wait until all the matters are resolved before giving a GET.
BTW, where does it say that GET has to be unconditional?
I wish all these AGUNIM who posted about themselves here or posted someone else’s story would get organized and fight back same way the AGUNOT organizations do. In my search for help I could not find any organization that does that. Together we can win, but when each one fights on his own the energy runs down much faster. And men usually much easy to give up and just walk away… Sad but true.
Let me just throw out a question which would force you to engage your mind and be truthful.
Wasn’t it just last week that when the news of the two adolescents got engaged we had some defending the engagement with the argument that you very seldom have divorces in your community, I took it at face value and I tried to explain away why there are differences, but this article proofs that numbers might be lower due to man not willing to give the ged at least in community when the court awards it is final.
Thanks to all of you that understand both sides of the coin,your a breath of fresh air,I have a close friend that has suffered from his wife with all kinds of false accusations and holding him from seeing his kids, from not even his wife but her unhealthy family,then had to deal with all kinds of threatened calls from agunah organizations that they chop off his feet if he dosent give a get,when in reality he was working with a mediator to cool down the situation before any get,not to have to suffer for life.
I read with much sadness of the plight of Agunot, and the recent media attention to this. Such behaviour on the part of any husband is unacceptable.
However, no mention appears to be made of the “got get gloom” being suffered by a husband who has given a get of his own free will, often contrary to rabbinical advice, before the civil, financial matters have been agreed.
He can then find that the lucky wife can avoid having to complete the civil proceedings and thus cause stress and anguish to a husband who is unable to move on in life despite his voluntary action of giving a get to free his wife at the earliest opportunity.
It is primarily greed and spite that prompts such behaviour and I urge the Beth Din to devise and appropriate method of dealing with such circumstance.
This behaviour on the part of a wife is equally unacceptable and the community needs to actively name and shame such woman with a view to achieving a prompt settlement between the parties.
The ongoing life and freedom of a husband is equally important and this practice, too, should not be allowed to continue.
The JC 14/09/09
Some points to ponder…
An agunah is not a woman who is waiting for a get from her husband whilst the couple is in the midst of a divorce proceeding or rabbinic arbitration. Far too many women abuse the term agunah nowadays when in reality they are abusing the sobriquet to garner communal and familial support. These women cheapen and belittle the plight of true agunos.
Having said that, I hav always advocated for a husband who has withdrawn from a marriage with no hope of reconciliation to give the get as soon as possible. It is a mitzva that should not be tied to the emotions of the situation, and woe is to the man who witholds a get needlessly. It is wrong on so many levels and the din vcheshbon is not worth whatever perceived tactical advantage one would imagine.
Which brings me to my next point. There is no tactical advantage in witholding a get. It is a cruel mental tactic but in reality, in either a civil or rabbinic venue, there is no reason to wait. I urge any man or woman reading this to meet for the sake of a get if you are holding in that parshah. You will feel great afterward getting this off your shoulders and there is no reason to put it off.
It also bears noting that women today hold up the get process as much as men, and while lhalacha a man cannot be an agunah, there are as many cases today of women refusing to appear in a bes din for purposes of a get as there are men. These women are wrong to do so and again, they really do a disgrace to women who pine every day in a truly trapped situation.
The other point I’d like to make is that in America, which we’ll define here as the greater NY area, the battei din are a complete sham and a disgrace, they exist to make money and not mete out justice, and the worst thing a couple can do is to seek out the intervention of a beis din to get divorced. I am a strong advocate of the court process, and that couples should use battei din to tender a get only. That is the only thing a beis din will do fairly, to both sides, is arrange for a soifer to write a get, with eidim, in an absolutely kosher fashion. In terms of determining custody the decisions many batei din make are based on outdated and inept old country beliefs that don’t come near resembling what is in the best interests of the children involved. Most batei din wouldn’t know the best interests of a child from last week’s cholent. And if you want, I can name names.
The entire process is bereft of justice, for husbands and wives. Most rabbonim are inept at understanding the psychological dynamics of the couple and the family. Don’t get me wrong, they can learn the kishkes out of a masechta and quote nimukei joe like they are the nimukei yoseph, but in real world applications these batei din are there to make money along with the whole cadre of toanim. Period.
Certainly a heter arkaos should be obtained before instituting a civil action, but on balance you are better off finding someone you hate and buying them a house than you are going to a beis din to settle a divorce.
Finally, the poster with the name shmoiger which I actually laughed out loud when I saw it, makes a great point. Wives and husbands too, use the term abuse today in any application where they are unhappy. It sounds funny, but its not. When a spouse says good morning in a way you don’t like, that’s not abuse. When a husband comes home after a day at work and needs an hour to unwind by himself, that’s not abuse. When a wife insists that a husband perform a chore when he’s tired, that is not abuse. Abuse is the systematic pattern of action that harms another. But if a spouse defines abuse as anything they don’t like, then that person just should not be married. The term is used like handing out candy. He looked at me funny – abuse. She left the toothpaste open again – abuse. Get over yourselves people. So many marriages are bad today because of this.
The entire article is one sided, about agunot. Yet we see, (even in the article itself) that there are MORE men who are in this situation than women.
Yes, Men can also be an agun. If the woman refuses to accept the get the man is stuck just as a woman would be stuck. And no, a man cannot remarry, according to Halacha, without a get.
While there are probably no statistics to support this, I would bet (for reasons expressed in the first paragraph of my earlier comment #16 ) that there are more agunos than agunim. As to whom it is reasonable to blame for a get that should have ended an unresolved marriage, it may well be a draw. I will take issue with an earlier comment that Beis Din should only write the get, and all other matters should be resolved in secular court. That is not necessarily so. Many Batei Din are competent in helping the couple work out a settlement agreement which includes the most obvious matters of division of property, custody and visitation, child support, and other details. Note, however, that when they do this, they are not paskening shailos – they are serving as mediators. In fact, mediation is often a great approach to the divorce process, as it keeps the work away from the negative feelings and focused on the ways in which there can be agreement. another point is that the process of reaching a settlement, unless the two parties are strangely amicable, involves considerable give and take. Drafts of the agreement fly back and forth, and the time involved can build up from months to longer than that. There is debate on whether one should complete the get before resolving all the other issues. Personally, I feel that the get should be “krisus”, the final severing of ties between them. That means that assets, financial obligations, etc. should all be settled by then. Yet, sometimes, there is a reasonable argument to complete the get, and let the rest of the bickering follow. As is always the case, each situation is different and should be judged on its own merit.
An earlier comment noted that some Batei Din wouldn’t know the difference between the best interests of a child and last week’s cholent. Sadly, I agree. But some do well in helping broker agreements on these issues, without pretending to be forensic specialists who know better than everyone else. Each situation is different. One thing worth noting is that the complaints lobbed by either party against the other concerning the best interests of the child are often groundless accusations that are actually part of their negative sentiments than related to the child’s interests.
I say, the Get should be written at the same time that the ksuba is written & witnessed and leave it with a beis din, just like they did before going out to war. Seems from all of your blogs we are in the midst of a civil war and this should qualify for this minhag to be enacted. This will solve the problem once and for all. The woman won’t feel threatened that she might not ever receive her freedom, preventing her hopefully from going after him as some of you describe, so viciously, and the man won’t have this weapon at his disposal. We will have to deal with our dayanim who might withhold the Get for whatever reasons they deem fit, but we shall cross that bridge when we get there. First things first. I think this is a brilliant plan…Let’s do it!
do the rite thing just give the get and start over stop waisting time
My ex gave me a get ‘willingly’ that came along with a contract and a bunch of conditions. NOW as the civil divorce is going through, all these rabbonim and dayanim from the beis din are nowhere to be found b/c my ex has forged his side of the contract! the Dayanim are only there when the MAN needs them. The women and children (i have 3 k’ah!) dont exist. they dont care, they dont care there is no money, no food NOTHING. no one to help. oh and before you ask….yes there was PHYSICAL ABUSE, EMOTIOINAL ABUSE, AND HE CHEATED ON ME (THAT WAS REALLY THE CHERRY ON THE TOP!) I have been harassed non stop by these rabbis and this so called ‘orthodox’ community i live in. no wonder religion makes me sick now.
Whoa. There are realities of issues to be settled. After a get, each of the parties should be able to move on in life to whatever is next for them. If they have not settled any of the issues, where each will live, the custody and visitation, division of assets, financial matters and support, etc, they will continue the battles for many years to come. Neither will benefit a thing, except that they can halachically remarry. I would not advise doing that, unless the circumstances are unusual. Yes, it is possible, but most of the time, it is just not smart.
The idea of writing the get at the time of the wedding was actually proposed by some gedolim of an earlier generation. Be aware, however, that this would only settle the issue of the get document, but would have zero effect on any of the settlement issues. One of the chains of igun is the bunch of issues that need negotiation and settlement (or in worse cases, trials and dinei Torah).
I say, the Get should be written at the same time that the ksuba is written & witnessed and leave it with a beis din, just like they did before going to war. So no more fighthings,no more high bloodpressure, or a neighbor calling cops because someone is screaming in hungarian kotcho faya neki
Let’s seriously start a mens agunim organization. That would be a wonderful albeit ironic result to this article. Any volunteers to initiate an email address to start getting organized?
Agunot suffer just as many husbands do. The agunot unfortunately have become like the palestenian refugees. Better to use them as propoganda than to actualkly adress their suffering. The agunot as just one of many barbs that people use to attack current norms in halacha.
All I was identifying is the evil of “withholding” a get, which is cruel achzoriyus, and the process of resolving the issues among which is the get. Yes, there are some people that will make the negotiation process linger for eons out of cruelty, and this is no less evil than the withholding of the get. As a general rule, both sides want the get, but have much to bicker about – the bad marriage. This is not the agunah situation, while it is unfortunate and worthy of takanos to remedy. The true agunah is where there is deliberate withholding of the get as an extension of the abusiveness that was probably a factor in the bad marriage in the first place. I have no pleasant thoughts about this, both the suffering of the agunah in this situation, and the cruelty that should never be a trait found among b’nei Avrohom, Yitzchok, and Yaakov.
Lastly, I classify myself as neither a chauvinist nor a feminist – just a realist.
I am not sure you read what I wrote; and if you did, you did not understand it. The part where I take issue, whether with you or with anyone else, is in the feminist agenda. I feel strongly for agunos, and wish that the community, Rabbonim, etc. all do something to end the problem. I consider everyone responsible. It is hard to see where we differ. My point was that the delay in gittin being completed is often the recalcitrant husband. However, there are also times (maybe not majority, but not uncommon) that it is the women who are prolonging the process. That is the aspect of the problem that gets ignored in the media. We rush to speak about domestic violence and the plight of the victims, a truly worthy cause. But we ignore the false accusations that are used to create fictitious arrests, orders of protection, incarcerations, and denial of parental rights. And I am an advocate of the programs for DV. I will just be “real”, and refuse to bury my head in the sand, believing that the abuse goes in only one direction. When there is a situation in which a divorce – get is lingering, I feel badly, try to intervene in whatever manner I can, but never, never assume that either party is the guilty or responsible one without evaluating the specific situation. There are evil men and there are evil women. Neither gender has superiority, and neither can boast better midos or greater intellect. Both include wonderful members. Not all Rabbonim are awful, and not all are reputable, upright citizens that carry out the responsibilities of their role. Each individual is different, and so is each case. No cookie cutter approach will work. This is known by every askan, every professional, lawyer, rav, or anyone with common sense.
At no point did I hint that extended family is an excuse to delay a get. I only referred to this as one of many elements in the process that can gum up the works. I am not looking to excuse anyone or anything. I prefer to see the mission as eliminating the hateful and revengeful fighting that lingers during and after the process. It is bad enough without all the additional bitterness.
I don’t care to analyze, but your writing, with its eloquence, sounds quite angry, and you were obviously someone that paid a steep price in the process. I feel bad, though there is nothing I can do to help you feel better.
As for the mitzvah of giving a get, there is nowhere that the Torah orders it to be either before or after the settling of the other affairs. We can debate this matter ad nauseum, and the matter really needs to be decided on a specific case-by-case basis, not by winning or losing the debate. I commented earlier that the get is labeled in the posuk as “krisus”, which connotes its being a final severing of connections. The ongoing bickering, as negative as it might be, keeps the two parties interacting, not being completely severed. I do not think this is a halachic statement, though I find it a guide that is often reasonable.
can someone list a few good support groups for women
Honestly, all of these comments frighten me.
There are Agunos. Period. There is no disputing that fact. This is a problem. Instead of addressing this problem, these comments:
1) Belittle and hate women.
2) Equate abolishing suffering with “feminist agenda”.
3) Bemoan how much harder men suffer.
We need to be real, and we need to face facts. Men are in control. They are the ones who can give the get, only of their free will. They have the power. Does anyone dispute that? No. Bais Din? Made up entirely of men. Witnesses of Bais Din? Only men. And you expect anyone to believe that it’s the men who suffer more than women?
Let’s pretend that a disproportionate amount of men DO suffer more than women in a divorce in which the get is withheld. Let’s pretend. Even if this were the case, does that mean that there aren’t agunos out there? No.
Honestly, what is the problem? Why wouldn’t you want to help a woman who is suffering? Why is the story you heard from your friend or your brother or your cousin the Moral Authority On What To Do With Women? Why is your solution to abandon the idea of helping other women altogether? Why do you imagine huge conspiracy theories with Secret Feminist Groups banding together to destroy men? It’s ridiculous. It’s laughable.
For you men who gave a get, and it worked out poorly, I’m sorry. I’m sorry for your pain. But you did the right thing in Hashem’s eyes. If you withheld a get, and your wife had a mamzer, that’s on your conscience. But you were a mensch, and we – as Jews – do not believe in Revenge. We must all exhort men to not withhold a get, not to enslave another human being into pain and agony.
I’m a newcomer to this discusion, but I am reading the “feminist agenda” in this last coment. An agunoh may not marry or have children since she is halachically married. That may be unfair, and her husband might be an evil creep. She may deserve to become widowed, but what is forbidden is not okay, and she is responsible for her own choice to violate halacha. I don’t think that comenter was absolving the husband of his responsibility. It was just not freeing the wife of hers. What is boiling about that?
I don’t think I failed to understand the anger about the chaining of the agunah. It is normal rage, and it is about some pretty mean people. When you tie me up, starve me for a long time, and offer me only trief, the halacha is that this is pikuach nefesh, and i am supposed to eat it. The chained agunah who is stuck in this evil trap by someone who deserves the worst consequences will certainly face some tough situations, loneliness, lack of support, with others besides her husband participating in the atrocity. However, her establishment of liaisons with other men, while tempting, do not constitute pikuach nefesh. She is then facing her own bechirah, and halacha is clear about what she must do. There are mitigating circumstances, and her din in shomayim will undoubtedly consider this, but she remains responsible. Just because she is the victim of a barbaric husband and his supporters doesn’t make her less culpable. Halacha is not being dangled. It is live and well (Toras chaim), and it is where it has been since Matan Torah. Unfortunately, there are those who tamper with it, and in some cases, trample on it. Even if I am facing someone oppressing me through trampling on Torah and making a chilul Hashem, I am not permitted to respond in kind. Two wrongs…..
I had a relative who was an agunah for a while, and I have familiarity with this situation (from one case at least). I boil, too, but will not make even the slightest move to justify violations of halacha. Boiling blood doesn’t permit issurim.