New York – Today’s Daf in the Gemorah (Bava Basra 97b) cites Ravah who states that a person may squeeze out a cluster of grapes and recite the Shabbos Kiddush over it. [Presumably, the squeezing must have happened on Friday] . Since wine is the only liquid that may be used for Friday evening Kiddush, it must be that the bracha for grape juice is HaGafen.
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Nowadays, many people make Kiddush on grape juice and recite a HaGafen, as it seems should be done from the Gemorah.
One can raise a question on this, however, from a somewhat obscure explanation of the Knesses HaGedolah (OC 202:1). The Bais Yoseph quotes the Orchos Chaim that on “Aropi” we recite a Shehakol. One may ask, What, pray tell, is “Aropi?” The Knesses HaGedolah explains:
“Aropi is where they step on the grapes and after they step on them they add in the liquid a known whitish powder for an hour or slightly longer. This is done so the liquid will clarify quickly and will remain sweet. Afterward, they warm up the liquid. That powder prevents the liquid from turning into wine – instead causing it to remain sweet, therefore my opinion is that it’s blessing is shehakol. “
Modern day grape juice manufacturers all introduce sulfites into the grape juice which retards the fermentation process. They generally add about 150 parts per million. Store bought grape juice, therefore, cannot turn into wine. It would seem then that it would have the same problem as Aropi. The Knesses HaGedolah seems to be correlating the halacha to the requirement of the Rashbam’s requirement (seen in his comment to Yayim Koses on Bava Basra 97b) that grape juice is bedieved permitted for a libation on the Mizbayach if it is able to become wine.
Dayan Weiss, however, in Minchas Yitzchok (8:14) cites a responsa from the RaN and rules that the real reason why Aropi is shehakol is because there is a later stage where it takes on a honey-like consistency.
Most people rely on Dayan Weiss to recite a HaGafen on grape juice. However, a careful reading of the Knesses HaGedolah indicates that he really believed it was a Shehakol because it cannot become wine. Dayan Weber of Har Nof, author of Divrei Halacha, reads the Knesses HaGedolah in this manner unlike the reading of Dayan Weiss. Presumably Rav Elyashiv agrees with Dayan Weber’s reading (he visits him weekly or so).
Even so, however, the responsa of the RaN may trump the opinion of the Knesses HaGedolah, so let us not throw out our grape juice Kiddush practices just yet.
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Kiddush is less of an issue than the daled kossos…
I studied gemara Brachos at RIETS with Rav Y D Soloveitchik z”l. Once during a shiur
he told us never to make kiddush on pure grape juice LECHATCHILA, without first adding wine that can be tasted in the mixture. Only with alcoholic content do we get a wine that (Tehillim 104:15) “makes the heart joyous.” Personally, when I am at an event where there is grape juice and no wine, I add a little whiskey to observe his ruling. If it is a BIDI-EVED SITUATION, of course I make kiddush on the juice.
He may have been talking about the GJ in EY which is of a much different type than the USA. I wont comment on the overall taste of the EY stuff but lets just say I dont understand their taste.
That being said, it is my understanding you could buy store bought GJ and turn it into wine however you would have to add yeast to make it happen. I think we did this experiment in elementary school and it worked — sort of.
If anyone involved with kedem is reading this, perhaps they could comment?
Sulfites do not stop fermentation. Wine has sulfites too, and so did the wine in Chazal’s time! What stops grape juice from fermenting is pasteurization. And even after that it can still ferment once the bottle is opened and exposed to yeast from the air, so even if you hold that something that can’t ferment isn’t wine, grape juice is still kosher. This whole inyan was gone through by the Tzelemer Rov Z’L when he first gave the hechsher to Kedem, and you can look at his teshuvos on the matter (or speak to any of the Herzog brothers).
Why say “presumably squeezing must have happened on Friday?” It is this type of ignorance, based on a narrow focus of how we conduct ourselves today, that breeds complete and deep am aratzes. The melacha of sechita is not based on the squeezing of fruits. People who don’t squeeze fruits today do it based on chumras and yeish omrims as we really don’t know halacha on the level that those in the time of the gemarrah know. To make the amoraim sound like the jackasses of today, has it completely backwards.
“Presumably Rav Elyashiv agrees with Dayan Weber’s reading (he visits him weekly or so). “
That seems to be presuming a bit much. Just because someone visits Rab Elyashiv every week does not mean that Rav Elyashiv agrees with every opinin that person holds.
Dear Monsey Man,
There are two sechita toldos – not one. One of them is dosh and the other is libun. Grapes is deoraisah – Olives too. The presumably is correct.
Rav ELyashiv holds that it is shehakol.
I don’t understand the comparison from the case of the white powder besides # 8
fine point.
Today grape juice is Chashuv like wine second of all when the grapes were made it was made for Grape Juice it was not downgraded from Wine to Grape Juice.
Lastly, sulfates is put in for freshness not so it should not ferment.
Who cares why they put it in – the larger amount of sulfates stop the ability to ferment.