![Rav Mayer Twersky delivers his condemnation over the Gay panel. [Photo: Yitzchak N.. For VIN News]](http://www.vinnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/twerski.gif "twerski")
New York City – There has been a very strong response at Yeshiva University to last week’s panel on Homosexuality in the Orthodox World.
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A week ago, the panel was organized by a group of students and the Wurzweiler School of Social Work. One week later there have already been a number of protests and condemnations from the Roshei Yeshiva to the administration and down to the talmidim.
A few hours before the event a kol korei was quickly put together and signed by six of the Roshei Yeshiva who were around the Yeshiva at the time. The letter strongly condemned the upcoming event and what it represented. The text of the kol korei can be found below.
A few days later a statement was put out by President Richard Joel and Menahel Rav Yona Reiss also speaking of their strong disapproval of the nature of the event.
A petition is going around among the talmidim as well, calling the event a Chillul Hashem. It already has several hundred signatures.
These events culminated in two mussar shmuessen delivered in the Beis Medrash on Monday, addressing the Chillul Hashem. In the afternoon, Rosh Yeshiva Rav Mayer Twersky, grandson of Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik zt”l, spoke to a packed Beis Medrash of over 500 people, including Rabbeim, talmidim and administrators. Following the psak of Rosh Kollel Rav Hershel Schachter, the shmuess was given in the middle of 2nd seder in the Yeshiva. Rav Twersky passionately spoke of the unimaginable Chillul Hashem caused by the event and the mistaken hashkafa that led to it.
Link to Rav Twersky’s shmuess at Torahweb.org
Or listen below
At night, Menahel Rav Yona Reiss spoke to the same full Beis Medrash. He stressed that while sensitivity is required for those who struggle with these issues b’tzina, the panel was a breach of tzniyus and kedushah. Rav Reiss charged the talmidei haYeshiva to increase their own personal levels of kedusha to ensure that such an event never occur again.
Text of Kol Korei
The Torah requires that we relate with sensitivity to a discreet individual who feels that he/she has a homosexual orientation, but abstains from any and all homosexual activity. Such sensitivity, however, can not be allowed to erode the Torah’s unequivocal condemnation of homosexual activity. The Torah’s mitzvos and judgments are eternally true and binding. Homosexual activity constitutes an abomination. As such, publicizing or seeking legitimization even for the homosexual orientation one feels runs contrary to Torah. In any forum or on an occasion when appropriate sympathy for such discreet individuals is being discussed, these basic truths regarding homosexual feelings and activity must be emphatically re-affirmed.
Zvi Schachter
Meir Eliyahu Twersky
Yaakov Neuburger
Michoel Rosensweig
Baruch Chaim Simon
Yonason Sacks
True talmidei chachamim; period end!
It is a shame that they and the yeshiva student body whom they lead are besmirched by the liberalism streaked by the minority and those who do not understand toroseinu hakedosha
As a former Yeshiva bachur I can give you my two cents. I never liked being around others who I suspected of being homosexual. No bachur likes to be touched or looked at by another guy period. This type of behavior is disturbing in a Yeshiva environment and it provokes bad feelings. Why would YU professionals now attempt to promote understanding for this orientation in the Yeshiva setting? It is a social problem that must be handled by Psychologists and other professionals privately and with compassion. Can a man or woman be “cured” of this orientation? I have no idea whatsoever. But making this issue a mainstream and accepted position in the religous community is wrong. I do not want to appear unsympothetic. This is just reality.
Yeshiva university does it again – dignifying such an abomination
The harder YU tries to look modernized and to make sense of Orthodox Judaism in 2009 the harder on their face they fall.
Yiddishkeit is hardcore conservative values from thousands of years ago and to try to understand and make sense of everything is impossible.
I somehow just don’t get what’s goin on in this place, is it a public area where everyone is free to do what he pleases? Don’t they need permission from anyone before the have such a forum? If the RY’s were against it even before it began how did this whole thing come about?
blah blah blah! This is only the begining! Better they go to a goishe college that “works with” the jewish community than going to a so-called “yiddishe” college. In a few years from now they will have an openly gay rabbi preaching and will expell anyone who speaks ill of the gay mafia.
You either go with the Torah 100% or there is no Syata Dishmaya. This university has no Syata Dishmaya and will either falter or go from modern orthodox to condervedox to reform.
Don’t kid yourselves homosexalty exists in all spheres from Brooklyn to Jerusalem – our community is beseeched by a sick philosphy of sweeping things under the rug until it is way too late to undo the damage –
I think it is a good idea to have these kinds of forums and to publicize potential treatments for these individuals. Perhaps hormone therapy can help them become normal.
As a fromer Yeshiva student i am curious how Rav Blau could allow such a panel discussion to take place without the express authorization of the Rosh Hayeshivas. In any yeshiva the mashgiach would need the permission of the rosh hayeshiva before allowing any Vaad or public forum of any type to take place. What was Rav Blau thinking and why wasn’t this forum shut down by the Rosh Hayeshivas before it took place?
Would it be fair to say the reason YU tried to hold a forum is because it was revealed that there are gays, among the bochrim there? So what should be a yeshiva’s policy in this case? The “kol korei” seems to say these boys would be retained if their orientation became known, unless they were openly practicing. But is it realistic to acknowledge them, and at the same time forbid them from expressing themselves? Personally I don’t believe this is a line that can be drawn. Eventually their guard will become relaxed and the moral fabric of the yeshiva will be further eroded.
You know it is really amusing… to read the repetition of the same argument, like people can’t read.
I am talking here about the charge above ‘our community is beseeched by a sick philosphy of sweeping things under the rug…’
This is clearly the misunderstanding of what the Rabbonim Shlita say above:
“…the Torah requires that we relate with sensitivity to a discreet individual who feels that he/she has a homosexual orientation, but abstains from any and all homosexual activity. Such sensitivity, however, can not be allowed to erode…”
If there is reading comprehension issues, let me help. It basically saying, if an individual is in need of help, he is to seek this from proper counselors, privately. This is not sweeping things under the rug, this is the opposite. This is a public call for these people to ‘come out’ and talk to the APPROPRIATE rabbonim, professionals etc. However, to metamei the air of any gathering of Yidden by publicly talking about a toeva, is not, it’s just not the Torah approach.
And if you would charge that some rabbonim are not clean either..so what? They are only people. Don’t mix up the Torah with people.
Moshe EMET veTorato EMET. The others are trying
The Roshei Yeshiva and administration of YU decry the chilul Hashem. Where is a similar response to the events in the EJF, the kids in Lakewood who can’t get into schools, the mosdos whose leaders sit in jail. Where is the public “al cheit” from the vaad Harabbanim whose names are printed on all of the letterheads? Why are they not brave enough to condemn the institutions they are affiliated with like the Roshei Yeshiva of RIETS comdemn YU?
For those who criticize YU, look at your community. The corruption and ignorance should sicken you and make you demand change. Instead you rehash all the same old arguments against YU dating back to the 1930s. Criticizing RIETS and turning the yeshiva into a “them” makes it easier for you to look yourself in the mirror and feel good about your complacency and shallow observance.
In YU, at least when they make a mistake they are big enough to admit it. At least they are fighting for Kovod HaTorah. You claim to be fighting for Kovod HaTorah when you fight YU. But the truth lies in the broken lives that litter your community from the corruption you allow. Who are the ones who should say “Al Cheit”?
Wow!! at least someone at YU Is standing up for the Truth.
Here are just a few things you should think of.
The Torah does not hate gay people. The Torah call gay activities an abomonation!!
one should read the 8 chapters of the Rambam, the Rambams introduction to Pirkei Avos. Where the Rambam talks about ppl having yetzter haras for bad things. and the Rambam goes on to call that a person who has these feelings to do bad things, that the Almighty called bad, and does not act upon it is a good person. a strong person who can fight his will.
We all have Yetzer Haras, and we must fight them with our G-d given free will.
However to make a forum like they did is wrong. this is to be dealt with privately by rabbis who are comptent. The orthdox community should have a confidential hotline for ppl who believe they are gay..
Hopes this helps.
(Moderation is the key, striking the proper balance is the question)
Can someone please explain to me what are orthodox gay kids supposed to do, remain in the closet. Gay is not a choice- get it thru your heads ! Is the orthodox community going to continue deneying this as it has done with so many other anomilies. Gay gezuntheit !
wow, i just became a fan of R Twerski
I listened to Rav Twerskys shmuess and I agree with him 100%. My question is, how do Yeshiva Bochurim have such Hashkofos in the first place? You would never find such a forum in Satmer or Lakewood etc. YU needs to do some real soul searching and correct the source of the problem.
i went to yeshiva university and spend a lot of time now with ex and current “heimeshe” chasidim. the prevalence of homosexuality is far greater the more you segregate the sexes. teenagers have a big yetzer harah, and if all they see is members of their own sexes, thats what they will use to exercise their yetzer harah.
additionally, because of the prevalence of a culture of omerta in the charedi world, rebbe’s are for more likely to take advantage of effeminate boys under their tutelage, which has the added repercussion of diminishing the taboo against homosexual behavior to molested children.
To compare adultery, molestation, rape etc.. to homosexuality is so intellectually dishonest, its surprising it comes from a people who claim to have stronger logical and reasoning capabilities as a result of the Aramaic texts they pour over. The obvious difference between these acts is that while the aforementioned behaviors affect other people, homosexuality does not. If you want to invoke the Torah to justify your intolerant approach to life, by all means. Just don’t try to compare an adulterer — a person who is affecting other people, with consensual behavior which affects nobody other than the willing participants. There is no comparison.
So I guess the Rabbi(s?) who publicly organized and ran the “event” should now publicly appologize and ask klal yisroel forgivness and step down?
I think Rabbi Blau is of significant enough stature to have his opinion taken seriously. Obvoiously he disagrees with the other Roshei Yeshiva and the different viewpoints and approaches to this issue are interesting. It appears the other Roshei Yeshiva and Mr. Joel are not concerned so much with the issue as they are with the appearance that holding a forum may promote some sense of legitimacy to Gays.
I would tend to agree with Rabbi Blau that ignoring things does not make them go away. Being afraid to confront things actually demonstrates weakness. My personal gut feeling is that you are not born gay and you don’t become gay unless you persue that particular Taiyva like any other Taiyva. In desires of the flesh, the rule of thumb is that the more you pursue it, the stronger the desire becomes. It is also true that the gay lobby has far more power and influence then it’s numbers deserve. Studies show that the rate of Homosexuality among the general population is not more than 2% of the entire country. The rest of us should not have to endure having the gay agenda imposed on us by an oftentimes tyrannical minority.
I am wondering why Rabbi Willig did not sign this letter…..
Very powerful speech.
The desire is very strong for teenagers especailly, and that is why I believe in marring off my sons, at young age (19-21 hopefully), even though its not 100% accepted in my community.
homosexuality is not a choice, how many of the people who claim it is a choice lusts after men ( I am talking about men) and homosexuals do not lust after woman. .
In addition, a homosexual act can be done by a heterosexual, however that does not make one a homosexual.
to ignore scientific facts are just stupid, and makes the issue much harder to deal with.
I am not sure what the forum was about, but to ignore or not to discuss that some are only attracted to their own sex is foolish. And to just say he just get married and have kids is also not a very smart idea
thats the problem in todays soceity . people can do what they want bec its not a choice they were born with it. SHEKER WRONG. every jew has bechira and their is nothing hashem gives you that you cant overcome althogh it may be hard.
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If you listen to R’ Twersky he seems to accept the current view of professionals that in fact homosexuality is hard wired. This presents to me a hashkafic question that you hint at and is why I used to believe (as the Greeks did – philosophically without empirical testing or evidence) that you were correct.
KT
As a Musmach of YU and a Talmid of the Rav, I am saddened over this entire episode. As #7 points out, the issue is how do we allow a Makom Torah, a Yeshiva, to end up in the Matzav of U’Viarta Hara Mikerbecha? Is Rabbi Blau the Mashgiach of the Yeshiva? Is there accountability within the Yeshiva structure? Do all schools, including Wurzweiler adhere to one standard of Torah behavior? These are the primary issues and in this regard, the most impassioned shmuess after the fact doesn’t alter the portrayal of the overall Mossad. I think K’lal Yisroel needs to engage the President and Trustees of YU in a constructive dialogue that addresses the core issues of the decision-making structure in YU and stop whitewashing the issue after an event like this was moderated by the “Mashgiach”- a terrible desacration to all those who consider YU their primary Yeshiva and the great Roshei Yeshiva as their Rebbeim.
I think people are confusing two different things.
homosexuality, is not a choice.
Acting on your homosexual feelings is a choice.
Now a discussion can be had
A big shkoyach to all the choshuva mispallelim by YU. I think that they handled it with aplomb, and I would like to see this event run at BMG and Mir (Brooklyn), because it is evident that the heimishe Rabbonim actually WANT this to be publicized. Only the Modernische Rabbonim want to sweep this under the rug. People are confused- it’s the Aderaba… it is pashut to me if you look a the talmidei chachamim (plural) that organized this!!!
After reading 49 posts, it seems that not one person would admittedly confess that they are confused by how to approach a member of their family who is gay. That is the real underlying issue in this debate, it is easy for someone who doesn’t have a family member or close friend that was born gay, to pronounce with a fervor all the Torah prohibitions against homosexually, because it doesn’t effect them personally, and if and when your Rabbi is exposed as a wife swapper or involved in some type of soliciting of sexual favors for himself or someone else, you will find some illogical answer why it should not be exposed or talk about it. Additionally, if a rabbi is charged with tax evasion, laundering money, you will use any and all argument why it was ok what they did, and when a molester is exposed how many of you will encourage the parents to go straight to the police, not to many, and if someone is arrested and tried in a court of law and found guilty, almost all you will still argue that the victim is a liar and the jury didn’t hear all the evidence, all that is ok but if the question what should a gay person do when he feels that you try to scouring him with your vicious attacks, absolutely not, he retreats further into his painful existence with no healing in site. You are the cause of their pain, you who would raise the flag torah when it comes too homosexually but defile it when it is the other 612 commandments.
Rav Twersky said:Case in point – if one allows for the following combination of propositions: One, homosexuals are wired that way, something that is hopelessly irreversible, they are wired that way. Proposition number two of which there is a big debate in the mental health community, although one only hears one side of that debate on the street proposition number two – in addition to being hopelessly wired that way, this represents a unique, sui generous, herculean, heroic struggle to conform to what to the Torah says, V’Es Zachar Lo Sishkav Mishkevei Ishah To’evah Hee. What’s wrong with that combination of propositions? No matter how many times you repeat the mantra that Halacha isn’t negotiable, isn’t relativistic, the real message that is broadcast – that if one is hopelessly wired, and this represents a heroic, herculean struggle, my respect knows no bounds for someone who struggles with this. We don’t hold ourselves to heroic standards. The message is – despite my mantra that halacha isn’t negotiable, under the guise of sympathy, the message is – rachmana l’tzlan, the Torah’s halacha isn’t really real for you. I don’t expect you to comply with it because you are hopelessly wired this way, and it’s a heroic struggle of titanic proportions that you struggle with this. The message is I don’t expect you to apply the Torah to yourselves. … [quoted a posuk]… that rabbosai, may be well intentioned, it may be a sincere intention and attempt to extend sympathy, it is achzoriyus, nothing less – it broadcasts that I don’t expect you to comply with what the Torah says is yeharaig v’al yaavor.
Anybody who knows Rabbi Blau knows he is a great Talmid Chacham and a very fine Mentch, and Yorei Shomayim. Kudos to him for having the guts to deal with this issue as well as other issues in the Orthodox Community.
a few points:
the kol koreh & the size of the crowd testify to the great strides the roshei yeshiva & talmidim have made, truly remarkable
rav blau shlit’a intentions were lshem shomayim, & possibly didnt have a chance to discuss it with the other roshei yeshiva ( uteshua brov yoetz”)
the commens reffering to ” chassidishe bucherim ” dealings with one another..are not homo in nature the whole context is diff.
Any bochur that has approached a rebbe or rosh yeshiva about “gay feelings” was for the most part guided passionatly to someone for help …
moshe emes.. see rav moshe,s brilliant teshuva in the igros …
some references for guidance:
rabbi DR weinreb from the ou
Dr krieger in columbia is a specialist in paraphilac behavior
JONAH – org. is a very ehrlich org. that can help they have a support group in jersey city ( i believe that reb shmuel kaminetsky has some shaychus?)
molesting children has nothing to do with being gay its a diff sick disease
most frum adults struggling with homo feelings are really “BI” & with help can tip the “see saw” from “rov homo to rov hetero. many times it has alot to do with their own relationship with their father .
” men zol nisht vissen..
Rabbi Blau is a macher that does what the wealthy left wing doners want. He was used to place legitimacy on this despicable forum. There is a strong left wing group that would love to do away with Rabbi Shechter and all his more Yeshivish colleagues. Many of these doners now moved to “Yeshiva” Chovivei Torah. However, there is still many that want to turn YU into a more extreme left wing organization. Such a forum is a step in that direction.
Rabbi Twesky’s content & presentation confront a real-life challange to Halacha.
There are other such challanges that need to be confronted in the same manner.
I look forward to hearing him or persons with his intelligence and dedication, to Halacha, confront those issues in a similar overt and public forum.
“was there in the early 70’s…I was in the Rav’s shiur for ten years”
We’re very impressed.
#10 your right-what was good about the open form? that there are issues that need to be address and yes it’s all over and this is our test in our generation-may we see complete teshuvoh and lmminent geula now!
Alot of people are wondering why the other Rosh HaYeshivas did not sign the Kol Korei. This was only moments before the event, and most of teh Rosh Yeshivas do not live on campus or were not around then. So no judgements should be made.
Most people who do not go to YU do not know YU. Yes there are problems but there are problems EVERYWHERE. People would think of us differently if they knew how much Torah is learned here. Does anyone know who gave the first sichuss mussar in the new beit midrash this year? HaRav Reuven Fienstein Shlita. Do people not like him? Well he did come here to speak to us and was happy. Rabbi Dr. Twerski? yep he was here 2 weeks ago. Every year Rav Brevda comes. Last year, Ram in the Mirr, Rav nissim kaplan came . The Torah that is learned here is amazing. Every place is different and has its pros and cons.
thats unfair question
he can not fathom that possibility hence no answer….
I saw the panelists online. This panel glorified coming out. Especially Mordechai Levovits. R. Twerski was correct. If a person had desires for Aishes Ish, would he announce it? What if he desired young children or mishkav beheimah? This forum was wrong, wrong, wrong!!!
I’d like to think that this situation is more complex than “He’s right” and “He’s wrong”. It’s one thing for Rav Blau to support it, or for Rav Twersky to say how terrible it was. It is an entirely different thing for every regular person (me, of course, included) to either say that it was correct or incorrect. To find where we disagree, it is logical to see where we agree. I believe everyone can agree to these:
1) There is absolutely no defense for actually having homosexual relations (explained further in the third comment).
2) There is no definitive proof for whether one is born gay, and cannot be heterosexual, or whether one can change his homosexuality.
3) Everyone had free will. That is why we are punished and rewarded. Thus, whether one can change their innate homosexuality or not, one has the ability to overcome the temptation for homosexual sins.
So now we are in a grey issue. To what extent do we sympathize with homosexual people, before we simply say “Do what is right”? Is a public forum the best way to talk about the issue? How do we help those that identify themselves as gay? These are all difficult questions, one’s that I cannot answer, but hope will be answered.
However you may feel about homosexuality, I believe that it is clear now that the “hashkafa” that YU has tried to uphold in all its dealings has fallen apart and that the the religious portion of the institution can no longer claim to be a Torah institution if it does not cut ties with its secular anti-Torah counterpart. Yeshiva-University is now undoubtedly (as many said from the outset) an oxymoron.
Attending University is a wonderful thing, but do not fool yourself into thinking that the Torah will bend itself to the whims of modern culture.
It is my personal (somewhat offensive) belief that the Roshei Yeshiva, who are undoubtedly great Talmidei Chachamim, have lost all sense of priority and are standing by the Kilkul of Kavod Hatorah (real kavod haTorah, not to be confused with the mishugas seen amongst some communities) as long as they retain their positions in that institution!
For all you YU and university bashers, when collecting for your kolle, son’s wedding or wife’s surgery…SKIP my home. I am a proud YU musmach who has an advanced degree and stamnds uo when I see a video by an individual like R’ twersky. If you did not meet him (or any of his chaveirim, fellow roshei yeshiva and roshei kollel) you should watch your mouth. the abishter is counting…..
1. To say that it is impossible that someone could be gay without a choice because the Torah forbids it is ridiculous. Every prohibition in the Torah is given because, lulei soroscha, people would have an inclination to indulge in that behavior. We only need prohibitions for things that, if no one were looking over our shoulder, we would do. If there’s a prohibition against something, it’s because in a significant number of cases, someone wants to do these things.
2. With all due respect to R. Twersky, comparisons to adultery are not equivalent. An adulterer is seeking an abundance of sexual relations (more than just his own wife) and possibly harming another man (the husband of the adulteress). Should he choose to deny his urges, he can satiate himself with his wife. But what is a gay man to do? He is unable to marry a woman, he is unable to marry a man. His situation is by far much worse than an adulterer. Certainly, we expect him to adhere to the Torah’s guidelines the same as anyone else, but it is not fair to simply compare him to an adulterer. He is in truth a Lonely Man of Faith.
3. In my mind, here’s the main thing people should take from the panel. There are Orthodox Jews that are gay. They didn’t choose this lifestyle. They struggle, the same way all other Jews struggle with the opposite sex or with pornography. They often contemplate killing themselves because of the isolation and loneliness, and the fact that they are not accepted in their community. They are afraid to fully reveal themselves to anyone lest they be ostracized from the community for something that it is entirely possible they have never acted on and never will act on. They are afraid to talk to even their parents or rabbis for fear of reprisal. All they ask is that they not be treated as complete outcasts, and instead be viewed for what they are: erhliche yidden struggling to keep the Torah in the modern world. There is no reason why we can not grant them that at the very least. We accomodate the thieves, the child molesters, the tax evaders, the adulterers, the abusers…why not the gays as well?
The speakers talk about being actively gay (gay relations.) Then they say their nisayon is to be gay anfd frum. This means that they are actively gay and frum in many other laws. If the only relationship that they enjoy is toeivah- they must NOT have one at all. It is not easy to have a life without relations- but EVERYONE can do it. One of the boys writes on his friendster website that he enjoys “dating” men. He is openly practicing mishkav zachar. He is Nasse Kiheter in this area. No rav should have been present at this toeivah. Shame on Blau. His participation is a chillul Hashem that is too great to carry.
By the way, who do you think has a better insight into the prohibition of homosexual activity? A rabbi who is straight and has never dealt with the issue, or a committed, frum Jew who has spent his life struggling with his desires, pouring over the relevant psukim and gemaras, trying to make sense of his life and what meanig it has, davening about it multiple times a day, asking God why? I’m sure some of you would say a rabbi, a Talmid Chacham, a Rosh Yeshiva, but I think, in reality, you’d be wrong.
There are so many posts on this topic. I only know that I have realized the disintegration of the Yeshiva University for a while. They, like many of the ‘new’ modern orthodox have integrated themselves with the non-Jewish world and are more global in their thinking than Jewish. Hopefully, the Yeshiva part of the university still keeps in line with authentic teachings. This whole thing is a definite chilul HaShem and thankfully, these rabbis spoke up, but that ‘group’ should be dismantled.
They must have forgotten that it is the “Yeshiva Univ.”, not a typical university.
what type of retarded place is this that such a forum can take place without the knowledge of the roshei yeshiva?
Mordechai Levovitz has a powerful Point by Point rebuttal of Rabbi Twersky that is being published on all the Jewish blogs and even mentioned in the Jerusalem Post. It is definitely worth a read and some serious thought…very lumdish.
To sum it up; are you correct (paraphrasing your words) that, Orthodoxy’s protectionism of every minhag as if it were Halachah, will it actually result in not saving Judaism and instead self-destruct due to its own collapse of the weight which the people cannot sustain forever; or as I tried explaining Orthodoxy’s position on this that if we DON’T protect every Minhag as if it were Halacha, that is what will endanger the underpinnings of Judaism?
The answer might very well be somewhere in between, but has is wise enough to know when we’re over the cliff?
Or the answer might be to differentiate between Minhagim that aren’t sustainable with those that are sustainable. Either way many people like me aren’t going to take the risk; instead we’ll leave it to the Gedolei Yisroel, Un Az Men Fregt Blunget Men Nisht (asking avoids getting lost); that if we ask for directions from them we won’t get lost.