New York – Rabbis Set To Denounce Rabbi Avi Weiss For Ordaining Woman As Rabba

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    Rabbis Set To Denonce Rabbi Avi Weiss For Ordaining Sara Hurwitz As Rabba. Photo by Claudio PapapietroNew York – The word on the street is that the Rabbinical Council of America, the largest mainstream Orthodox rabbinical group, is getting ready to come down hard on Rabbi Avi Weiss, perhaps to expel him, primarily for ordaining a woman rabbi, Sara Hurwitz, whom he calls a “rabba.”
    The RCA considers women rabbis a violation of Orthodoxy.

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    Is the RCA about to haul Rabbi Weiss before its Vaad HaKavod, the committee charged with investigating “allegations of improprieties,” the first step in expulsion or discipline? The RCA’s executive director, Rabbi Basil Herring, was somewhat coy. Rabbi Weiss is not under investigation “at present,” he e-mailed.
    However, a source employed by one of Rabbi Weiss’ enterprises confirmed, “the RCA is considering kicking out Avi Weiss.”


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    130 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    wow, looks like the tca, just like the aguda has solved all of the real problems in klal yisroel already (tuition, money, molesters etc)

    godol HaDor
    godol HaDor
    14 years ago

    Ahn Alte Shoite…why waste their time.

    CBS
    CBS
    14 years ago

    this is exactly what Avi Weiss wants. …more publicty. Best thing to do is to ignore him.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    About time..

    About Time
    About Time
    14 years ago

    It’s about time. The scandal is that it took this long for the RCA to come to its senses.

    Chaim S.
    Chaim S.
    14 years ago

    Rabbos machshovos belev ish. The “ish” Weiss has many Rabbas in mind, but in the end, vatazas Hashem hi sokum. Hashem’s Shulchan Oruch will win out. Weiss often has pushed the envelope but this time he has gone too far.

    yosse nathan
    yosse nathan
    14 years ago

    the Rabbinical Council of America just wants some free press to show the world that they exist

    JFK
    JFK
    14 years ago

    soemone please explain me why being a female rabbi (Rebbetzin) must be via marriage of a Rabbi. Why can’t a rebbetzin be a rebbetzin without marrying a rabbi?

    And what is wrong with a female rabbi who will provide guidance to females?

    Please – don’t ramble your rhetoric. Provide halachic sources, preferably directly from the Torah, as opposed to some hassidic rabbi who says its forbidden

    Robert
    Robert
    14 years ago

    today its women as “rabba”

    next week these women may come to shule wearing streimels..

    v’ha-mayveen yaveen

    Joey
    Joey
    14 years ago

    Get rid of him! He is pulling down modern orthadoxy his version of it is exactly the same as the conservativs

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    What’s there to investigate? What he has done is beyond the pale in Orthodoxy, so he needs to join likeminded rabbis which he would find in “Conservative Judaism”. He need not be expelled as he has expelled himself by what he did, and he should leave on his own if he has any scruples.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    The RCA saw this coming yet didn’t do anything about it.
    I wonder if they are doing it out of financial reasons.

    BRONX
    BRONX
    14 years ago

    If I remember correctly both Weiss and Rabbi Herring or perhaps his brother were in the same shule in the Bronx in the late 1960’s. Weiss has strayed far from his YU beginings.

    David
    David
    14 years ago

    G-d forbid that RCA should miss out on an opportunity to make fools of themselves! They may manage to run something like an inquisition where they organize a show-trial with a pre-ordained verdict, but if they decide to actually have a full and open argument on the merits of this topic, they will lose, and lose big-time.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    if we can have rebitzins then why cant she be a rabba? rebbitzins are just as powerful if not more then rabbas! lets ban them all as far as im concerned

    a reader
    a reader
    14 years ago

    i think that rabbi weiss has been very clever here. he knows (as does anyone who is ‘holding’ in learning on some significant level) that there are several shittos in rishonim which allow/entertain the idea of women paskening shai’los (as well as several instances in jewish history when this was the case). as strange as it may seem to many of us, there really is no major problem with what he is doing beyond the fact that ‘we’re just not used to it’.
    if the RCA throws him out for this, they will come out looking much worse than him, since at the end of the day the burden of proof is on them to demonstrate why what he is doing is technically ‘assur’. they simply will not be able to prove this.

    Did I miss something??
    Did I miss something??
    14 years ago

    Excuse me, but perhaps I missed something. I saw that an investigation is underway, not that it has been confirmed that Rabbi Weiss has done this. Perhaps before we have him stoned, we should find out if it’s true???? So far this “investigation” is into “allegations of improprieties,”

    I’m glad none of you wo are calling for his head before an investigation is even done serve on a Beit Din!

    Pashuteh Yid
    Pashuteh Yid
    14 years ago

    Because I feel sorry for the fellow who complained about all the negatives on Jewish blogs, maybe one should be dan Rabbi Avi Weiss lchaf zchus, as gemara says that if a beis din unanimously convicts somebody, he goes free because they were not mehapech bzchuso.

    1) So far, we have not heard that the woman will be doing anything against halacha. I.e., if she was going to serve as an eid kiddushin, that would not be allowed. Merely giving speeches in shul and visiting the sick in a hospital does not seem to be a major issue.

    2) She is not paskening halacha, only teaching existing halacha, as women teachers in Bais Yaakov do all the time.

    3) Many thought Sara Schnirer broke with the mesorah as well, for initiating the idea that girls should go to school.

    4) Women have now in general become more educated. Whereas at one point there were no women doctors, now it is commonplace. Should we tell our daughters that secular careers are open to you, but religious ones are not?

    5) Is this woman trying to become less religiously committed or more? I could understand if she wanted to go to a baseball game on Shabbos and eat a treifeh hotdog, she should be roundly condemned. However, she is trying to learn and teach Torah and help others. Is that a terrible crime?

    6) As far as mesorah goes, we have women Neviim and Shoftim such as Devorah and Chuldah and Miriam and Sara, etc.

    7) The gemara says that at one point, women used to get aliyos and lein.

    8) In the time of the gemara, people were not allowed to read by candle on Shabbos. However, times changed, and because we now have bulbs that don’t need adjusting, everybody accepts that they can be used. Do you ever hear a complaint that we are violating our holy mesorah of not reading?

    9) When Moshiach comes and we abolish Tisha B’av will that constitute a breach of our mesorah?

    10) Rashi’s daughters put on tefilin. Women are not obligated in Shofar or Sukkah, but universally do them anyway. They can take on additional mitzvos if they are sincere. I personally don’t judge people’s sincerity. I leave that to the RBSH.

    This debate ought to center around specific halachic issues, as to what she can and cannot do with each point being brought from a source. Merely throwing around vague terms like yes Orthodox, not Orthodox, yes Mesorah, not Mesora have very little meaning. Our Mesorah is to follow halacha, so that is where the debate must center.

    I am not saying I agree with this new idea, as I don’t know enough about what she does and the whole arrangement. I am just suggesting we analyze it without letting our emotions run wild and instead focus on the intellectual and halachic ramifications. Rabbi Weiss has done much good for the klal in the course of his career, and he deserves to be given a fair hearing.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    I believe it is an explicit Halacha in the Rambam.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    It looks like Rabbi Weiss is starting to age mentally.
    He may know how to learn but is not an example of a practicing Rabbi.
    With such as him we can do without Rabbis.
    As far as this woman, there are thousands of more qualified who would dare not want such a job/title. She is a nuthead!!

    reb avrum
    reb avrum
    14 years ago

    women are allowed to ritually slaughter animals even though no one has heard of female shochetes.The same may hold true of ordaining a woman as a rabbi as long as she is only dealing with women may not bee too bad.

    intersting
    intersting
    14 years ago

    rabba maid

    yossel
    yossel
    14 years ago

    I want my wife to be a Rabbi and get a good salary.
    I will cook and clean the house and take care of the children!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Comparing these PC wannabes to Devorah is an insult to our intelligence.

    The Truth
    The Truth
    14 years ago

    Aren’t the Aguda a little late on this issue?

    – The REAL Truth (People, please pick your own ID here, not take mine!)

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Move on- ignore him and his nonsense “yeshiva”. they are a blip on the screen of jewish history and will disappear soon enough. Reform and conservative is on the decline; so will this-and hopefully along the way some of the less observant will realize this is realy just watered down yahadus. i look forward to the day we bask in the rays of the melech hamoshiach, and the sanhedrin will put an end to this idiocy!

    Amitus hatorah always prevails.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    purim on the way!! 😉

    thanks.
    thanks.
    14 years ago

    Chaim, thank you for the clear explanation.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    ….and then will come mixed dancing!

    2FRUM4U
    2FRUM4U
    14 years ago

    the correct form of the word should be RABBIT. That way you can say, “Silly rabbit, smicha is for men”. Happy Purim 2 all.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    to 336:

    purim on the way? so is R’Weiss achashveirosh , haman or (chv”sh) mordechai

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    This is a yiddeshe verion of Groundhog Day. We have all heard this debate before and there is NOTHING NEW here. Rav Weiss, shlita, is viewed by many of us as one of the great rabbonim in the U.S. today (I won’t used the term “gadol” since it seems to be applied to anyone today) and is a true talmid chacham and tzadik Clearly, the political hacks in the RCA and Agudah will view his actions as a threat to their authority and their mortal fear of increasing the role of women in leadership positions in accordance with but thats also expected. Kol Hakovod to Rav Weiss and much hatzlacha to Rabba Hurwitz.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Is Rabbi Weiss of the caliber of a Shach, a Taz, a Bach? Relatively, a Reb Moshe Feinstein, yes; a Rabbi Weiss, are you kidding? What is he, a poisek?

    Rav Weiss is a rosh yeshiva and considered by many orthodox jews to be equivalent or greater than all of the rabbonim you cite in lamdus and intellect. More importantly, he has leadership qualities for klal yisroel that will be shown to distinguish him from all the leaders of the rabbinical organizations.

    vos is
    vos is
    14 years ago

    let hear be mabe the men will stop talking in shul

    Chaim S.
    Chaim S.
    14 years ago

    #24 has written well but he misses a key point in this issue. Nobody can argue that women have played a very key role in Torah true education, including teaching halocho. There is no question that Sara Schenirer is brucha m’noshim b’ohel for the seminal work that she started and accomplished. How imortant was the work done by two of the greatest pedagogues of our generation, Rebetzin Kaplan AH and yibodel l’chaim tovim Rebetzin David, neither of whom ever thought of being a “Rabbi”. How much more worthy of semicha than anybody Weiss can bring forth is Rebetzin David who never asked her father Rav Hutner ztzl foe semicha and who arguably knows more Torah knowledge than 99% of Yeshiva Chaim Berlin. A key issue here is Weiss and his shitos of yiddishkeit. There’s a well known question; in aramaic the word chamor can mean donkey or wine. How do we know which it is? The answer, go look where it comes from, the stable or the cellar. Weiss has spent years slowly fraying the fabric of Torah true Orthodoxy. His Rabba, had he named her Director of Halocho Guidance, it would not have made the same waves of displeasure as naming her, using semantics, the title Rabba, clearly meaning female Rav.

    Chaim S.
    Chaim S.
    14 years ago

    If anyone can construe my posts as being words of war between a Torah true Orthodox Jew and the so-called Orthodox populist secularists, well yes it is. Yes we should fight against anybody who tries to tear at the fabric of our holy society and culture. Weiss has been doing this for years and all these posts who agree with him and give him kudos for his efforts are just as apikorsish as he is. This is exactly what the conservative movement started out as doing. Slowly tearing at yiddishkeit. And they had the temerity of calling themselves “conservatives”; so-called conserving our religion. History has proven that what they actually wanted to do and accomplished in doing was establishing a religion somewhat similar to Judaism. They have continued to tear at their own brand of religion by constantly abolishing Judaic traditions and laws that they themselves had upheld until recently. Why, because the people demand it? Is that the criteria for establishing halocho? Yes we have to fight, yes it’s being divisive. Yes I want to divide myself from Weiss et all. As the Torah clearly states many times, move away from those who want to tear apart Torah true values. Ki Ani Hashem Elokeichem.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Reply to # 24. Did u xpect us to read ur whole Megillah.?

    RejectsWomenRabbis
    RejectsWomenRabbis
    14 years ago

    The responsum in original Hebrew handwriting was first published in Tomeikh Ka-Halakhah vol. 1 (Union for Traditional Judaism, 1986), along with an English translation by Rabbi Wayne Allen. The following is the English translation:

    With the help of God, May He be blessed,
    Tuesday Evening, Rosh Hodesh Adar, 5739 [1979]

    To our friends and colleagues, Rabbis Dimitrovsky, Halivni Weiss, Zlotnick, Faur, Francus, may your peace be increased:

    In regard to the question that was put before you whether it is permitted to ordain a woman as a rabbi, I would have preferred not to deal with this question at all because of hidden reasons which I do not wish to disclose. I was glad that they neither asked me nor requested me to issue a legal decision. But now I am afraid that it is forbidden me·to deny kindness to others, to evade and not respond.

    RejectsWomenRabbis
    RejectsWomenRabbis
    14 years ago

    First, we must clarify whether a woman is fit to judge. Certainly is is an accepted teaching that women are unfit to judge, as Maimonides rules, Laws of Kings 1.4-5. This is also the ruling in the Shulhan Arukh Hoshen Mishpat 7.4. Refer to the sources cited by the Vilna Gaon there, sup-paragraph 14. And even though some of the Rishonim permit [women to judge], this is only in regard to giving interpretations, but not to teach how the law should be carried into practice. And never have we found a woman judge; neither in the era of the Tanna’im, nor in the era of the Amora’im, nor in the Middle ages. Moreover, they said in Sifre Devarim, section 13, ed. Finkelstein p. 21 (in regard to the judges appointed by Moses): “Men — and would we have ever even thought women?!” This astonishment of the Sifre proves more than the halakhic decision: never did they see or hear about a woman who judged. In any case, the ruling of Maimonides and the Shulhan Arukh is sufficient for us. There is no doubt that it is forbidden to ordain a woman to judge.

    RejectsWomenRabbis
    RejectsWomenRabbis
    14 years ago

    Now let us clarify what is ordination in our day. This is explained in the Book of Documents by Rabbi Yehudah Barceloni, who explains to us when an “ordination document” was used. He writes (p. 152): “But now, even outside the Land of Israel, (or) [should be: if] the elders of the city agree or the elders of the synagogue or the academy to ordain one of the students [they are ordained — like the editor’s gloss] thereby, and they write an ordination document without placing their hands on his head. Rather, they only write him an ordination document as a reminder of semikhah. Since he has this ordination document in his hand, from that day forward all men call him rabbi and they appoint him among the judges and include him in the council of his colleagues, and his appurtenances and his clothing shall be like the appurtenances of the sages and like the clothing of the sages, his colleagues, and like other ordained rabbis and not like the students not yet ordained.” Later (p. 133), he writes: “This does not resemble semikhah and is not semikhah at all. Rather, it is a mere similitude and a remembrance of semikhah so that the students will pursue the ideals of scholarship about which

    RejectsWomenRabbis
    RejectsWomenRabbis
    14 years ago

    ideals of scholarship about which we wrote earlier so that they will gradually increase their degree of wisdom and its application.”

    In Lithuania they were accustomed to ordain young men who had not yet reached the stage of being able to render legal decisions with the title “a sage when he will so desire.” This has some support from Bava Metzi’a 85a that Rabbi (Yehudah haNasi) ordained the son of Rabbi Elazar the son of Rabbi Shimon with the title “rabbi” in respect to the future. Refer there. In regard to the content of the ordination document, it is written in the Book of Documents by Rabbi Yehudah Barceloni mentioned above (p. 131) the formulation of which I do not cite “so as not to dwell on the matter because the elders individualize the language of each document according to what they agree on, etc.” And in the formulation of the ordination that the author of Terumat haDeshen gave to Rabbi Yitzhaq Segal of Regensburg (according to Leket Yosher, Part II, p. 33): “and he is worthy to sit at the head and to judge and to issue legal decisions, etc., and they shall call him up to read from the Torah by the name “morenu harav” and similarly in any situation in which it is

    RejectsWomenRabbis
    RejectsWomenRabbis
    14 years ago

    The purpose of this semikhah is to prevent unauthorized appointments to the office of rabbi. Refer to the lengthy discussion of this matter in the responsa of Rabbi David bar Hayyim haKohen of Corfu, Bayyit 22, Chapter 3, page 4 and onward, who was very stringent against appointing a rabbi without rabbinic ordination. And refer to the responsa of Rabbi Yitzhaq bar Sheshet, nos. 271-2. And we have already seen from the statements of Rabbi Yehudah Barceloni that there was not a fixed formulation of the ordination certificate. Rather, they were accustomed to expand the wording with florid language.

    In truth, these matters are clear from Sanhedrin 13b (in regard to actual “semikhah”, to judge matters of monetary fines): “and he is ordained by a title and they shall call him rabbi and they permit him to judge matters of monetary fines,” and there is no mention here at all of issuing legal decisions or judgment because the title “rabbi” itself means that he is authorized to issue legal decisions and to judge. And similarly see Bava Metzi’a 85a mentioned above where the title “rabbi” means semikhah.

    RejectsWomenRabbis
    RejectsWomenRabbis
    14 years ago

    And what they are accustomed to writing today “yoreh yoreh–yadin yadin” is merely a flowery expression. It refers to a question and a response. that is to say, according to the Gemara in Sanhedrin 13a, it means to give permission to issue legal decisIons and to judge. And as we saw above in regard to the “semikhah” of our teacher Rabbi Yisrael Isserlein, only “yoreh yadin” is mentioned.

    RejectsWomenRabbis
    RejectsWomenRabbis
    14 years ago

    Thus, those ordaining rabbis who did not write “yoreh yoreh–yadin yadin” acted well because there is no granting of permission here, only certification and testimony that those ordained are worthy to issue legal decisions and to judge (provided that they continue to study) in accordance with our holy Rabbi in regard to the son of Rabbi Elazar the son of Rabbi Shimon, and in accordance with the frequent practice of the yeshivot of Lithuania which did not mind to even write “yoreh yoreh–yadin yadin” for students who had not yet reached the stage of being able to issue legal decisions, since they relied on the fact that [calling the students “rabbi” would greatly encourage them] and, in the end, the students would thus learn and become worthy to issue legal decisions and to judge.

    RejectsWomenRabbis
    RejectsWomenRabbis
    14 years ago

    The end of the matter is that it is clear from the sources that being called by the title “rav” (“Rabbi he shall be called”) reflects on the fitness to issue legal decisions and to judge, and we should not empty the title “rav” of its meaning from the way it has been understood by the Jewish people throughout the generations. Since a woman is not fit to judge, and she cannot become qualified for this, she cannot be ordained by this title (even if we see it as a mere expression, refer to the Tosafot, Avodah Zarah 5a, paragraph heading “Ella”).

    Let us not make ourselves objects of derision and jest.

    Respectfully,

    Saul Lieberman

    Translated by Rabbi Wayne R. Allen


    Posted By Gil Student to Hirhurim – Musings

    Lawyer
    Lawyer
    14 years ago

    This reminds me of a maaseh with R. Soloveichik. When Golda Meir became PM, someone asked, “Nu, but the Rambam says a woman cannot be appointed to a position of serarah? So how was she appointed?” R. Soloveichik answered: “If an apikorus like Ben Gurion can be PM, then a woman can be PM.” (The point being that the State of Israel could care less about a halakkha in the Rambam — they have much more fundamental problems than that.)

    I have the same reaction to this latest “RCA” scandal. There are not a few apikorsim and leitzanim in the RCA. Kick them out first, then you can get around to Avi Weiss. (Not that what he did is at all defensible, but there is alot worse out there.)

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    1. There were women Chassidishe Rebbes, such as the Maidel from Ludmir that people called “Rebbe”. Also one holy Rebbetzin in recent times was revered as a Rebbe by a far-right dissident group who didn’t accept a new Rebbe who most of the chassidim accepted, vdai lmeivin

    2. I know a chasidishe yeshivah that gives smichah to women to be kallah teachers.

    3. It might be good for her to see if the NYC wedding bureau will accept her smichah. She can make a parnassah signing marriage licenses for couples who the Rabbi doesn’t want to sign (that can be her kavod by the chasunah). She can read the kesubah as much as a monkey can (v’dai lmeivin), so that is ok. Also maybe she can make money signing marriage licenses for goyim if they are both goyim (I know some rabbis do).

    4. As far as I am concerned, I’m always happy when the Modern Orthodox go more to the left. When you have very frum people who believe in kefirah like evolution (see the RCA website) and Zionism it makes a big chillul Hashem. Better the zionists, evolutionists, and liberals don’t defame Judaism by being holier than thou frum like NCYI and RCA who are rodef erlicher yidden for stupid reasons.

    Mazel Tov, Rabba!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Let us call her ; YENTL

    Mumcha
    Mumcha
    14 years ago

    I think that anyone who can defend Rabbi Weiss or his premise is sorely lacking in Jewish knowledge and education. Tampering with a tradition that is thousands of years old and super-contemporary is dangerous. If you want to know why this is counter our Mesorah and negates Judaism, why don’t you read Rabbi Fingerer’s op-ed in last week’s Jewish Press (page 4). It is the best exposition I’ve seen explaining why women rabbis are not allowed.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    I think we all need a Millhouse..

    nu so where are you ??