Tzfat – Disagreement Between Rabbis’ If Hotdog Ingredients Are Treif

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    Tzfat – A passionate internal debate among some of the Chief Rabbinate’s most senior members has the potential to cause a dramatic hike in the price of kosher hotdogs in Israel.

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    Safed Chief Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, who is also part of the 16-member Chief Rabbinate Council, stirred up a maelstrom when, during his weekly Monday night lesson, he told students that some of the major hotdog producers in Israel were using non-kosher ingredients, including pig skin, for their products’ casings, which are sold under seemingly adequate kashrut supervision.

    In days of yore, sheep intestines were used to contain the hotdog ingredients, but nowadays reconstituted collagen casings, produced from chemically treated animal skin, are the prevalent practice.

    A spokesman for Sephardi Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar refuted Eliyahu’s claim and produced a verdict issued by Amar over 10 years ago, ruling that the chemical processes that the animal skins undergo constitute a sufficient change in form to nullify the previous substance, even if the animal was not slaughtered according to kashrut laws.

    They can therefore be considered kosher – though not mehadrin A similar principle governs the kashrut of gelatin that is of animal origin.

    Amar had issued that adjudication before he became chief rabbi at the behest of senior Sephardi halachic authority Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who endorsed the decision.

    In addition, six months ago Rabbi Avraham Buhbut, head of the rabbinate’s meat-processing department, issued a letter to all city rabbis and kashrut supervisors, reiterating that the Nipi casings produced in Japan and Naturin casings from Germany were kosher – albeit on the most basic level, as they used the skin of animals that were not slaughtered according to kashrut laws.

    Amar had even issued a later letter backing the kashrut supervision supplied to Nipi by Rabbi Shneor Revach, after the chief rabbi sent two senior members of the rabbinate’s kashrut committee to oversee the factory’s work.

    So what in the world could be unkosher about a hotdog with such pedigree? Plenty, according to Eliyahu, who noted in a conversation with The Jerusalem Post on Thursday that most of the significant Halacha adjudicators were of the opinion that the processes used on the skins couldn’t change them enough to create a new and neutral product.

    Eliyahu said that the Chief Rabbinate Council had convened on the issue in the past and decided against giving the rabbinate’s approval to the product, despite the highly regarded minority stance of Amar, who was already chief rabbi at the time.

    Since there are alternatives that are indisputably kosher, made from synthetic materials or kosher animals, Eliyahu said, the council saw no reason to approve a disputed product.

    According to Eliyahu, the Chief Rabbinate Council is the only body that can decide on such matters, so Amar cannot formally bypass its authority. As for Buhbut’s and Amar’s letters, Eliyahu noted that neither were formal kashrut certificates.

    Sources in the rabbinate denied that the decision against providing Nipi with certification had ever taken place, and challenged Eliyahu to produce its protocol.

    But even without the protocol, it is clear that the rabbinate never approved the Nipi casings. The Chief Rabbinate’s Import Division is the only body that can give the rabbinate’s official stamp of approval to the kashrut certification of products from abroad.

    Asked by the Post whether the division had approved the Nipi casings’ kashrut, Import Division head Rabbi Yitzhak Arazi said that it had not. Arazi respectfully pointed out that Amar’s letter was an extremely important opinion, but not a kashrut certificate.

    It didn’t take long for two people – a religious Muslim and a religious Jew – to hop on the opportunity and file a request on Wednesday to sue Soglowek, one of Israel’s largest hotdog producers and a user of Nipi casings, for NIS 200 million.

    Basing their case on Eliyahu’s address, the two told the Jerusalem District Court that they had been misled by the company to eat highly unkosher swine products.

    Soglowek, which is based in Nahariya, issued a furious response, saying it would sue anybody who caused the company losses by besmirching its good name. The meat factory also pointed out that since its inception, it had taken care to use only products approved by the Chief Rabbinate.

    It is the local rabbinates that provide the supervision for food factories, and Nahariya Chief Rabbi Yeshayahu Meitlis told the Post late Thursday that if the head of the rabbinate himself – Amar – had given his approval to the Nipi casings, he didn’t need the formal approval of another clerical committee, referring to the rabbinate’s Import Division.

    Besides, he said, disqualifying casings produced from non-kosher animals would most likely cause a serious hike in the price of casings, which would be made only from kosher skins or synthetic materials, and that could discourage people from purchasing kosher hotdogs.

    However, sources within the rabbinate who asked to remain unnamed said that Eliyahu had the rare courage to speak out against a longstanding situation that might be kosher in some ways, but sure didn’t smell right. There are procedures that must be followed, the sources said – with all due respect to Amar’s halachic stature, which none disputed.

    Meanwhile, both Revach and Amar have lashed out against Eliyahu on radio broadcasts over the past few days, rebutting his claims primarily from a halachic point of view.

    “These are not impure animals [whose skins are used]; whoever says that is unnecessarily defiling his mouth,” Amar told Kol Barama on Wednesday, citing Yosef as the primary source for this halachic line of reasoning.

    The Chief Rabbinate Council will debate the issue in its upcoming meeting.

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    14 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    If Eliyahu and the other members of the “chumrah brigade” have nothing better to do with their time than debate a matter that has been settled by gadolei yisroel in prior years, he shouldn’t waste anyone else’s time on this meshugaas. Perhaps if the courts hold him personally responible for any lost business to the firm that produces these casings, other rabbonim will think twice before speaking such lashon haroh.

    15 years ago

    No. 1. Calm down. The minute you read the word Rov or Rabbi that they said a din, you jump like a rotweiler pit bull. You act as a worse anti religionist than the gentiles. There is nothing wrong with legitimate disagreements between rabbonim.

    You have no problem if two supreme court judges or a judge of a lower court and an appelate court judge have opposing views, its just the rabbonim that give you heartburn. With todays technology every item must be checked and rechecked because what you think you are getting is not necessarily that.

    Alan
    Alan
    15 years ago

    Why eat “hot dogs” at all?

    Berel13
    Berel13
    15 years ago

    No problem – hot dog are not “rauy leachilas kelev” hence the name

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    To No. 2

    Legitimate disagreement is fine except that in these cases, there are parties that are hurt by these “disagreements”. We have had many cases where rabbonim raise questions that result in substantial business losses. Do your questioning privately without hurting innocent owners who relied on the paskin of the gadol hador.

    whats ur problem
    whats ur problem
    15 years ago

    Dunno about you, but I suddenly got turned off hot dogs!

    lakewooder
    lakewooder
    15 years ago

    This shaaloh was decided years ago about gelatin and forbidden. This was the normative halacha for many years and changing that without different circumstances is a dangerous precedent and arrogant. Reb Chaim Ozer, Reb Moshe Feinstein and many others say it is Ossur. Rav Henkin was outvoted in the Agudas HoRabonim about this and Rabbi Amar is not of the stature to dispute them. Although this is true, the lawsuit from a religious jew is a chillul hashem. It is ossur to go to court and he should have gone to Beis Din for the damages he is really due (probably zero). Joining up with a religious Muslim is even worse. This is hischabrus loreshoim and worse than Neturei Karta who have at least honorable intentions (saving jewish lives).

    kollelfaker
    kollelfaker
    15 years ago

    the chumrah brigade is on the march again forget halacha why arfent they yelling about the real issues child abuse alcholism, oir children running out of yeshiva’s not wanting any part of them for starters but then they would being doing something rather then bankrupting a business in gods name

    Shlomo2
    Shlomo2
    15 years ago

    Lakewooder #8 :
    Actually,
    The sha&#8 217;aloh was never &#8 220;decided&#8 221; years ago and forbidden.

    In fact, what happened was that Rav Aharon Kotler had strong feelings on this matter and US kashrus agencies therefore do not allow it. Rabbonim and kashrus agencies in EY have their own poskim and did not agree,.

    Without comparing him to anyone else, Rabbi Amar is a major league posek and is entitled to form his own opinion. I suggest you read any of the hundreds of teshuvos he has written.

    As for why this battle is being fought and how it is being fought, the Rabbanut, unlike US kashrus organizations, is not a for-profit business. It actually has rules and regualtions that i must comply with and most openly disclose what they are doing and why.

    Rav Eliyahu, as a Rabanut member, is more than entitled to challenge them and Rav Amar is more than entitled to argue with him.

    15 years ago

    #8
    Your opinion does not become a fact simply because you said so.

    To say that gelatin &#8 220;was decided years ago and forbidden&#8 221; is not only misleading &#8 211; it&#8 217;s simply wrong.
    And to throw R.Moshe&#8 217;s name out of context is also ridiculous.
    Many authorities permit hot dogs either to be &#8 220;skinless&#8 221; or with &#8 220;artificial casing&#8 221;. And if you bother to learn what the difference is between &#8 220;Natural&#8 221; casing and &#8 220;artificial&#8 221; casing is
    &#8 212; Natural is from sheep/cow/pig skin
    &#8 212; Artificial is from collagen&#8 230;&#8 230;. i.e. gelatin
    Not only does the CRC and other bodies specifically give a hechsher on artificial casing, but many including R.Chaim Ozer straighforwardly permitted gelatin and collagen products as not having any connecting to meat or kashrus problems.
    The toras kohanim and rambam state that bone byproducts are patur.
    Rav moshe considers not eating gelatin to be a chumrah (on the potential safek) but never assur.
    The mishna berura and the rama even mention the process of drying out (and using) skins and/or bones as being permissible as long as it has been dried out and all liquid removed. Gelatin is powder.

    But obviously you know better and are a more elite posek for all of us.

    15 years ago

    This is an excellent article about why people use Bedatz Heckshar so not to get involve with this kulahs. Rav Landau Shilta is another excellent heckshar also. I have worked in kashrus and know what people do and don’t do. There are so many ingredients in products and whether they are all check and by which organization requires a lot of work. Years ago you eat from your community. The shochet daven with you; however today the meat is from Argentina, ketchup from Holland, flavors from Holland, Oil from Holland, Chocholate from Belgium, candy from Brazil, spices from Austrialia, India, etc, Wine from France, Hungray Romania, New York, CHile,
    cookies from Scotland, vinegar from France, Cheese from England, etc etc. In chewing gum there is over 62 ingredients

    lakewooder
    lakewooder
    15 years ago

    I am not sure what I did ti Mima to get that personal attack. I do not have a personal opinion on this matter. The Pesak was decided many years ago, with R’ Chaim Ozer in agreement (see Chazon Yechezkel). The decision was to forbid gelatin from non-kosher animals. Rabbi Shlomo Amar may be a world class posek (I have never seen his Teshuvos), but I am sure you are not suggesting that he is the equal of R’ Aharon Kotler. Even if he was, my point stays; the normative halacha has been decided by virtue of the fact that we are standing 60 – 70 years after the fact. Arguing with the normative takes a certain arrogance that may only be done by the recognized gedolei hador.
    BTW, the shulchan aruch in choshen mishpot paskens that government-appointed Rabbonim may not be relied on for anything that needs a Rov. This would preclude any pesakim of Rabbi Amar and indeed Rabbi Eliyahu from being relied on. I know that sounds like the Kanoim are talking, but either the Shulchan Aruch was a Kanoi, or in this respect the kanoim are right.

    15 years ago

    It is interesting how many people say you must follow a posek blindly, regardless of your personal opinion, and then go on to give their own opinion of what is right or not.