New York – ‘Kzayit’: Torah, As Real As It Gets

    85

    New York – Rashi almost certainly never saw an olive. The same goes for other medieval authorities in Ashk’naz (Germany-Northern France). This little-known but indisputable fact should matter to you. It has everything to do with the following question: Is Halakhic Judaism rational and rooted in reality, or is it a hypothetical construct unconducive to engaging the real world?

    Join our WhatsApp group

    Subscribe to our Daily Roundup Email


    It is a simple matter to ascertain, or describe to another, the volume of an average olive, a ‘k’zayit’…provided you have olives. But what if you have never seen an olive? How would you understand the concept? How would you describe it to someone unfamiliar with olives?

    This was the reality in Ashk’naz in the Middle Ages, and there is no mystery as to why. The olive tree is native to the Mediterranean basin, from Israel in the East to Spain in the west; it does not naturally grow elsewhere. In Roman times, due to the trade routes which crisscrossed the Empire, olives may have made their way to Germany and beyond. The collapse of Rome, however, led to a breakdown of law and order, and therefore trade.

    Medieval Ashk’nazim were unfamiliar with olives, a fact confirmed by R. Eliezer b. Yoel’s (d. circa 1225) discussion of the minimal amount required for a b’rakha aharona: “Wherever a k’zayith is required, one needs a sizeable amount of food, because we are unfamiliar with the size of an olive…” (Ra’avya, B’rakhoth 107).

    Some Ashk’nazi authorities concluded that an olive was half the volume of an egg, while others demonstrated, based on Talmudic sources, that it must be less than one third of an egg. How much less they could not say. The truth, of course, is different, as was clearly perceived by one 14th century authority who actually made it to Eretz Yisrael. Responding to the proposition that a person could swallow three k’zaytim at once (which is quite impossible if one assumes a k’zayit to be half of an egg in volume) he wrote: “As for me, the matter is plain, for I saw olives in Eretz Yisrael and Yerushalayim, and even six were not equal to an egg.” S’pharadi authorities, on the other hand, had no such difficulties. One wrote that an olive is “much less” than a quarter of an egg (Rashba), while another mentions in passing that a dried fig is equal to “several olives” (Rittba). The last three statements, made by sages who saw olives, are entirely accurate.

    In present day Halakhic practice, predicated on opinions rooted in the aforementioned lack of knowledge and experience, a k’zayit is often said to be 30 cc, while others say 60 cc. These figures bear no relation to the real world olives of Eretz Yisrael which average 3-5 cc. It is claimed by some that once upon a time olives were much larger. This claim is false. Olives and olive trees have not changed, as evidenced by the fact that there are over 70 olive trees in Israel ranging between 1,700-2000 years old, and 7 are approximately 3000 years old. These trees continue to produce fruit identical to the olives of younger trees. Halakhic responsa from the G’onic period echo these facts, stating plainly that olives do not change. Some would have you believe that there are two kinds of olives: real olives and ‘Halakhic’ olives. In their view, Halakha need not reflect reality; it exists in an alternate reality of its own. This is a tragedy because it paints Judaism as divorced from reality and irrelevant to a rational person. This is a lie because Torah was intended by Hashem as our handbook for operating in the real world.

    The ultimate purpose of Judaism was announced by the Creator before He transmitted the Torah to His people: “And you shall be for My purpose a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:6). The nation of Israel is the priest connecting God and mankind. “I, God, have summoned you for a righteous purpose…. and have assigned you for my covenant with humanity, a light for the nations” (Isaiah 42:6).

    The Jewish people, in order to succeed, have to live and lead in the real world. To deal with the challenges facing us as a nation we must think, act and believe rationally. A rational person does not believe in olives 2o times the size of the olives we see with our own eyes. To deal with reality, we have to get real.

    We are described as being created in the image of Hashem because we can think and reason. To convince ourselves that Halakha can be based on irrational claims is an insult to our God-given intelligence. Not to mention that it places Judaism squarely in the realm of fairy tales. What kind of message does that send to our children?

    Nothing could be more pernicious than the notion that truth and Torah do not mix. The same goes for the idea that Halakhic opinions rooted in Exile-induced misconceptions are sacrosanct and immutable. A philosophy that turns aberration into truth, the Torah of Galuth into the real McCoy, is intolerable. The clear implication is that Judaism, as a system, is broken and beyond repair.

    Before you eat your k’zayit of matza at this year’s seder, you might pause to consider what you are about to say about yourself, and what message you are about to send to your family and friends.

    I can tell you what message I will be sending: that Torah and Halakah are as real as it gets.

    David Bar-Hayim is an Israeli rabbi who heads the Machon Shilo Institute in Jerusalem, Israel. HaRav Bar-Hayim’s beth din is well-known for having issued a p’sak halakha permitting the consumption of kitniyot for all Jews residing in Eretz Yisrael.

    In 2009 VIN News had an exclusive interview with Rav Bar Hayim.


    Listen to the VINnews podcast on:

    iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Stitcher | Podbean | Amazon

    Follow VINnews for Breaking News Updates


    Connect with VINnews

    Join our WhatsApp group


    85 Comments
    Most Voted
    Newest Oldest
    Inline Feedbacks
    View all comments
    sanhedrin
    sanhedrin
    11 years ago

    I’m glad that this issue is being publicized. Kol Hakavod to R’ Bar-Haym for being a voice of reason in a world where the only way to be more frum is to be more machmir. R’ Natan Slifkin brought up this issue a few years ago, and has a long article on it, for those interested in further sources on the topic.

    Aryeh
    Aryeh
    11 years ago

    Kol ha kavod for the intention, but the trouble is that in order to overrule an halachic ruling of previous generations, even an erroneous one like kitnyos, or a shiur like k’zayit, one must be on a level greater than those who instituted it. Otherwise, the dishonor to our forefathers is not outweighed. Even the Lubavicher Rebbe, ZTK”L, who checked the pots on Pesach to ensure that the Sephardim had rice to eat, was not so bold as to cancel the ban on kitnyos or do a new, scientific measurement of a k’zayit. There is simply more to Torah than our secular understanding of the world.

    Snagged
    Snagged
    11 years ago

    Surely the reason that Chazal used measurements related to everyday objects, rather than use the measuring terms of their eras and areas, is that these would remain viable in all era and locations. Volumes like a Beitza, a Zayis and Melo Lugmov are obvious. If you have never seen an egg or an olive, by all means err on the side of caution, but if you have, you know how much you are required to eat. Yasher Koach.

    11 years ago

    Truth is not always what we see in front of us.

    The Rambam lived in the Middle-east, including a short time in the land of Israel, so I am rather sure he saw some olives. The Rambam, on the second Mishnah in Eduyot, says that K’Zayit is 9 dirham. A dirham is 3 to 3.2 grams. Hence a K’Zayit according to the Rambam is 27 to 28.8 grams.

    This Rabbi has an agenda and is ignoring other opinions.

    itzik18
    itzik18
    11 years ago

    what is rabbi bar hayim saying here? Which kzayith should his talmidim eat?

    11 years ago

    R’ Chaim Volozin also held that a K’zayis was just that — the size of a contemporary olive. Rav Hadar Margolin once told me that he asked R’ Shlomo Zalman Aurbach Z”TL if one could rely on this for achilas matza b’shaas hadechak. R’ Shlomo Zalman replied something to the effect of, “Why only b’shaas hadechak?”

    Wise-Guy
    Wise-Guy
    11 years ago

    According to what I learned in Chedder, (according to many Posskim) the dispute over the size of an olive, or an egg for that matter, has resulted simply because “Nishtaneh Hatevah”. The Torah measurements are based on sizes common in Biblical times. But “nature has altered”. (Usually it has diminished.) Therefore we aren’t clear about a “Kzayit”, even though we see plenty of them. (There’s also, I think, different opinions regarding “size versus density”.)
    BTW, I personally don’t believe that Rashi never saw an olive. He traveled extensively and I’m sure he either came across some (imported, pickled) olives, or spoke to reliable people that were familiar with olives.
    Rashi is particularly famous for his integrity. There are numerous places where he states clearly “I do not know”. If his (or other Rishonim’s) measurements where “guesswork”, he (and they) would have mentioned it.

    DovidZSchwartz
    DovidZSchwartz
    11 years ago

    Chazal say that the land has been cursed since the destruction of the Bais Ha Mikdash. The Torah itself tells us that when the meraglim returned from surveying the land, it took several men to carry one grape vine due to the huge size of the grapes. If anyone has any question of the veracity of this story, take a look at a Temani esrog (the size of a football) and compare its size to the other common varieties (size of a baseball). This story is based on false premises.

    yissacher
    yissacher
    11 years ago

    Rav Chaim of Volozhin and the Avnei Nezer maintained halachah l’maaseh that the kezayis is the size of an ordinary olive. Even the Chazon Ish acknowledged that me’ikkar hadin this is the correct position, and everything else is chumra.

    MaverickThinker
    MaverickThinker
    11 years ago

    My recollection of Engine. Translation of The Alschich on Beraishis is that when Moshiach comes, the natural order of the world as it was before the tree “misrep” will return and we will be harvesting finished bread, not wheat. We also know from the reports of the spies that produce size is relative to Hashem’s motives at any given time. So, we really don’t know how nigh olives were when he had the Bais Hamikdash or the presence of eminent scholars and their mates. Am I missing something here?

    Ben_Kol
    Ben_Kol
    11 years ago

    GEVALD!!! This so-called rabbi would not reach the toe-nail of one of our heilige rabbunim. He is telling us to look at reality! What does reality have to do with anything? We care only about the emes as taught to us by our heilige rabbunim. If the rabbunim say that a kezayis is the size of a watermelon, then that is the emes, and the reality does not matter.

    Now, he’s attacking the shiur of a kezayis. Next, he will say that metzitzah bepeh is just a minhag that has no health benefits. Next, he will say that saying perek shirah does not work for shiduchim. Soon none of our sacred superstitions will be left. GEVALD!!!

    11 years ago

    “It is claimed by some that once upon a time olives were much larger. This claim is false.” So what about the medrashim we are all familiar with regarding the fruits of eretz yisroel in the time of Moshe being carried by multiple people, like the famous picture of grape vines on the shoulders of four carriers?

    Avi613
    Avi613
    11 years ago

    The briskers are very machmir they hold a kzayis to be the size of a watermelon..

    I was once by a sedder the guy ate two boxes for hamotzi..

    Avi613
    Avi613
    11 years ago

    When the meraglim went to get fruits from israel it says they were huge..

    noahz6
    noahz6
    11 years ago

    there is a study from bar illan that our olives are in fact larger than the olives of the time of the bais hamikdash

    Lawyer
    Lawyer
    11 years ago

    Also found this on a website:

    1 extra large (XL) egg – with a wegight greater than 2.25 oz (64g) will yield 4 Tbs (about 56 ml)
    1 large (L) egg – with a weight greater than 2 oz (57g) will yield 3 Tbs + 1 tsp (about 46 ml)
    1 medium (M) egg – with a weight greater than 1.75 oz (50g) will yield 4 Tbs (about 43 ml)

    chosid
    chosid
    11 years ago

    If Chazal say that left is right and right is left, that’s the halocha.

    11 years ago

    I am sorry that I made a mistake.

    I looked at the Rambam that I quoted above, and he does not say what I thought he said. He comments on a Revi’is only, and I read elsewhere about using that amount to calculate a Kezayit. I confused a later Rabbi’s commentary with being the Rambam’s own words. The Rambam does not directly address a Kezayit there.

    Lawyer
    Lawyer
    11 years ago

    Read the article. There are olive trees currently in Israel which have been producing fruit for 2000, even 3000 years. The fruit are identical to those today.

    What’s the basis for saying they are the same? Ever heard of bad harvests?

    Ben_Kol
    Ben_Kol
    11 years ago

    To commenters 22,27, and 29.
    I agree with 22 and 27. What I wrote is indeed lunacy (27), as well as dangerous and scary (27). However, I disagree with 29. This cannot be the “must ridiculous thing” that you have ever heard from a frum person. Lots of frum people actually believe and espouse this type of nonsense.

    I suggest that you all look up “Poe’s Law” on Wikipedia. Briefly, it states that one cannot tell the difference between satire of religious (or other) extremism and the real thing because they are both equally insane.

    BTW, I left a few clues that you missed. a) I called myself “Right_Wing_Lunatic.” b) I referred to shiur kezayis, MbP, and reciting Perek Shirah as “superstitions”. c) I wrote in correct English.

    Shlomo2
    Shlomo2
    11 years ago

    Michael:

    To add to what i wrote above:
    Of course, there is no reason to believe that Rambam would define the size of an olive as anything other than the olives he saw. Therefore, even the calculation I was making above, is not consistent with the Rambam, whose olive would be significantly smaller even than what teh calculation yields.

    Lawyer
    Lawyer
    11 years ago

    For some reason, one of my posts has gone missing. I pointed out that both olives and eggs have a wide variety of sizes. See these websites;

    http://www.sizes.com/food/olives.htm
    http://www.sizes.com/food/chicken_eggs.htm

    The largest eggs are twice the size of the smallest, and the largest olives are almost FOUR TIMES the size of the smallest.

    Go to any shuk or gourmet market, and you will see a variety of olives of different sizes being sold. The largest are indeed roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the size of a medium egg.

    Ben_Kol
    Ben_Kol
    11 years ago

    Rabbi Bar-Hayim writes: “We are described as being created in the image of Hashem because we can think and reason. To convince ourselves that Halakha can be based on irrational claims is an insult to our God-given intelligence. Not to mention that it places Judaism squarely in the realm of fairy tales.”

    So true

    shlomozalman
    shlomozalman
    11 years ago

    “Teva” or physical laws have never changed and never will.
    The k’zayis is the size of an average olive. Any other opinion is indefensible.

    11 years ago

    Now, that we know that the world has many time-zones, should American Jews still keep the Zman of Hachnosas Shabos, seven hours after HKB”H started keeping His Shabos in E”Y?
    Now, that we know that the moon doesn’t really light up anew, on Rosh Chodesh, its only caused by the angle towards the Sun, should we still be Mchadesh the Levonoh?

    11 years ago

    I am very surprised that VIN should post something from the Shilo Institute. Under the guise of scietific-style analysis they are attempting to create a new Torah. They may have brilliant minds; they may have studied much Torah. But they have no connection to the Torah as passed from generation to generation as described by the Rambam at the very beginning of his Commentary to the Mishnah. That is the starting point of everything we do, and this is something to which they have no connection.
    With regard to the claim that olive sizes have not changed, People who have at least a passing knowledge of the modern world should not be aware that the speed of light has been changed by scientists several times this century – not just as a refinement of the calculations, but actual revisions that were each time supported by evidence from labs, until the next revision, when evidence again came in to support it. If the speed of light can change, anything can change, and the fact that olives today growing on 2000 year old trees are the same size as those of much younger trees means nothing. Sizes can change universally with climate change and many other other factors.

    Ben_Kol
    Ben_Kol
    11 years ago

    To anyone who thought that my first comment (#13) was off the wall, read the following REAL quote from a speech by Rabbi Uren Reich (Rosh Yeshiva of Woodlake Yeshivah in Lakewood)

    “If the Gemara tells us a metzi’us, it’s emes veyatziv. There’s nothing to think about. Anything we see with our eyes is less of a reality than something we see in the Gemara. That’s the emunah that a yid has to have … We’re coming to hear new kinds of concepts, that we have to figure out a way to make Torah compatible with modern day science – it’s an emunah mezuyefes!”

    This was said by a Rosh Yeshivah in a speech at an Agudah convention! Can’t get more mainstream than that. It makes me want to cry.

    Aryeh
    Aryeh
    11 years ago

    There is a scientific principle that from my studies and experience is sacrosanct, and if it is questioned, one become subject to ridicule and derision: Uniformitarianism. The scientific BELIEF that the laws of nature behave in precisely the same way, at all times, and in all locations. The Jewish People are privy to knowledge of another force which overrides Uniformitarianism, which precedes it, and which is the basis of creation of something from nothing. Only cosmology comes close to contradicting Uniformitarianism, when it explores the fractional moments after the instant of creation. Be sure, one day, this knowledge will be commonplace and rest assured that every word of the Torah will be understood as Truth by everyone. Don’t put too much faith in Uniformitarianism and don’t make the logical error of applying it to Halacha.

    tehillim_119_72
    tehillim_119_72
    11 years ago

    Rashi was never in EY but he got the right pshat in birashies (35-16) kivras haretz (see Ramban) .
    rashi never weighed a litra but his number was proven recently right over the other reshoniem.

    yissacher
    yissacher
    11 years ago

    But how is this going against tradition? There were always Poskim, even in recent times, who held that a kezayis is the size of regular olive. E.g. R. Chaim of Volozhin and Avnei Nezer.

    11 years ago

    Kesayis = the size of an olive in the times of the Beis HaMikdash, when Eretz Yisroel was totally different, as was agricultural growth, as should be known to any kindergarten student who’s learned Chumash. People need to be exceptionally weary of new style rabbis who are kofrim, at least lemaaseh, like David Bar Hayim, with their false and dangerous sophistry.

    David Bar Hayim, your new definitions may be well received by the Jewish Press crowd, who’ve strayed from Judaism and invented a new path, but their machti es harabim and vosizneias should be ashamed of itself for giving it a forum.