New York – Civil Disobedience Seen As A Viable Option In Metzitzah B’Peh Battle

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    EPA FILE - Arranging medical tools prior to the traditional Jewish circumcision ceremonyNew York – With the New York City Department of Health’s vote on metzitzah b’peh just weeks away, advocates and religious groups are taking measures to prevent the proposal’s passage, including the threat of civil disobedience.

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    On September 13th, the Department of Health will decide whether parents will be forced to sign an “informed consent” document before the religious practice can be performed on their infant sons. Metzitza b’peh, the final step in a bris mila, involves using oral suction to remove blood from the baby’s wound. Although modern-Orthodox rabbis allow the use of a tube as an alternative to direct contact with the infant’s incision, Haredi rabbis have maintained that metzitza b’peh must be performed in order for a bris to be valid.

    The Forward reports (http://bit.ly/OgnF94) that groups such as Agudath Israel and assorted Hasidic sects have come together to fight the Department of Health’s proposed directive, and have met regularly to develop and implement plans to garner support both inside and outside the community.

    Michael Tobman, a political consultant working for these groups, said, “Unless the city is ready to subpoena mohels or break the doors in of synagogues around the city, I don’t really think they understand what they’re trying to do. This is a community absolutely committed to resisting this ill-considered effort, up to and including civil disobedience.”

    Rabbi Chaim Dovid Zwiebel, the executive vice president of Agudah, said he was not certain that the rabbinical leadership would urge civil disobedience, but did say, “Will there be compliance with the regulation? I’m not sure.” He noted that, “There’s nothing about filing a consent form that is inherently in conflict with [Jewish law],” but added that Agudah’s rabbinical leadership may not want their adherents to sign a form saying that the metzitzah b’peh practice may be hazardous.

    The Forward notes that the opposition to the Health Department’s measure is so great that even “famously feuding brothers” Rabbis Zalman and Aron Teitelbaum of Satmar both attended a meeting where strategies to counter the Health Department were discussed.

    Rabbi David Neiderman of Satmar’s United Jewish Organization of Williamsburg remarked, “What we’re saying is, allow us to conduct our religious activities the way we’ve been doing that.”

    On this issue, Mayor Bloomberg recently said, “There are certain practices that doctors say are not safe and we will not permit those practices to the extent that we can stop them. You don’t have a right to put any child’s life in danger, and this clearly does.”

    Between 2000 and 2011, 11 babies contracted herpes following their circumcision. Of the 11, two babies died. Proponents of metzitzah b’peh claim that “the rate of infections are low” considering how many times the ritual is performed each year by ultra-Orthodox mohelim. Approximately 10 to 15 babies in Canada, Israel, and the United States have been hospitalized with the herpes virus in the last ten years.


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    44 Comments
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    Yonason_Herschlag
    Yonason_Herschlag
    11 years ago

    I think a more practical solution to the problem would be requiring mohelim to have blood tests every couple of years or so, to insure that they aren’t carrying any contagious diseases that could be passed on via matzitza. That would protect the infants, while not inhibiting the continuation of the religious custom.

    yosher
    yosher
    11 years ago

    Civil disobedience is not threatening; what if government choses to pursue criminal charges (muder, attempted muder, etc) in the event of infectious transmission?

    Ben_Kol
    Ben_Kol
    11 years ago

    Let me get this straight. They want us to engage in civil disobedience (which is forbidden under halachah and which could land you in jail) in order to protect a practice that possibly endangers the life and health of our babies. This is insane!

    Many if not most Litvish-Yeshivish poskim ruled that alternative methods without direct oral contact should be used in cases of danger (the Chasam Sofer, the Aruch HaShulchan, R’ Chaim Soloveitchik, R’ Chaim Ozer and others). The Mishnah Berurah cites a dispute (which he is not machria) whether alternative methods are acceptable – even where there is no danger!

    We should be thanking the medical establishment for pointing out the dangers of mbp. Instead we are being encouraged to violate the halachah and risk going to jail in order to stop them.

    As Chazal say, עולם הפוך הוא.

    Ben_Kol
    Ben_Kol
    11 years ago

    the article says “between 2000 and 2011, 11 babies contracted herpes following their circumcision. Of the 11, two babies died”
    Yeah! Let’s fight in the streets for MBP so that more babies can die, become sick, or suffer brain damage.

    NotSoFrum
    NotSoFrum
    11 years ago

    “There’s nothing about filing a consent form that is inherently in conflict with [Jewish law],” but added that Agudah’s rabbinical leadership may not want their adherents to sign a form saying that the metzitzah b’peh practice may be hazardous.”

    So, no one is saying the procedure can’t be done, only that there is increased risk involved. I don’t see this ‘form’ as anything different than what a medical doctor requires a patient to sign before a medical. If the parents wish to put their babies at risk, let them do it….but then don’t complain when, chas v’shalom, something happens!

    DovidT
    DovidT
    11 years ago

    Hashem is doing this for the achdus it’s generating. May we be truly united to bring moshiach now!

    DovidTheK
    DovidTheK
    11 years ago

    They should just make sure the mohel does not have the herpes. They can make it a law for every mohel to be tested. If he has herpes he can do the milah but not the metzitza. Who could argue with that?

    11 years ago

    Can someone explain why. If 100 doctors were to say that MB is safe
    and only one doctor were to disagree and say that it is dangerous, You
    would need to refrain from MB. Now that the case is reversed and 100 doctors
    claim that it is dangerous and one doctor claims that it is safe you are required
    to do MB. Is MB one of the three cardinal sins and need to do it even if your
    life is in danger?

    Mark Levin
    Mark Levin
    11 years ago

    Mayor Bloomberg recently said, “There are certain practices that doctors say are not safe and we will not permit those practices to the extent that we can stop them. You don’t have a right to put any child’s life in danger, and this clearly does.”

    Nanny State Bloomberg is such a tipish he doesn’t want to understand that MBP has been done for THOUSANDS of years but now, all of a sudden, its a problem.

    I think the real reason Nanny Boonberg has a problem with this is for another reason which can’t be put in a family site.

    grandpajoe
    grandpajoe
    11 years ago

    I don’t umderstand – if there is a way to have the Mohel be tested and verified ‘kosher’ what is the halachachic negativity to that.

    11 years ago

    What hypocrisy. I would hope the day the DOH tries to implement this consent document Agudah and / or Satmar will file a lawsuit against the NY state which now allows alternative marriages. Do they sign a consent informing them that their lifestyle is a prime cause of AIDS.

    StevenWright
    Member
    StevenWright
    11 years ago

    The best solution is to have every mohel without exception, rinse his mouth before every bris with 32 ounces of Coke. If it can kill a human it can definitely wipe out any virus!

    5TResident
    Noble Member
    5TResident
    11 years ago

    Civil disobedience is for behaimas like Al Sharpton. Jews are supposed to be the People of the Book. Imagine the chilul Hashem civil disobedience would bring.

    hobble
    hobble
    11 years ago

    Going forward all children and parents should be tested as 2 children contracted the virus from family members one from a sibling who licked his pacifer and another from his very own Mother yet DOH and CDC will not recognize that even though its documented in the newborn’s record

    So lets start a new foster care such families that chas v’shalom should have a child at home with the virus

    Sounds like we are going back in the dark ages
    MOSHIACH must be very close PLEASE COME ALREADY

    Nirah-Lee
    Nirah-Lee
    11 years ago

    The World Health Organization estimates that 90% of the world population currently carry this extremely contagious virus… so what is testing gonna help?

    wsbrgh
    wsbrgh
    11 years ago

    All of shas and Shulchan Aruch mention “metzitza”. NOWHERE do they mention “b’peh”. All “halacha l’Moshe m’Sinai” is mentioned in Shas. This is a MINHAG not kept by all frum groups and it does not possel the mila EVEN l’chatchila. All authorities SHAS and POSKIM say that metzitza is for HEALTH reasons. So, if there is a BETTER way to avoid disease, then other methods of metzitza are PREFERED.

    georgewashingtonbridge
    georgewashingtonbridge
    11 years ago

    Aren’t the mohelim supposed to be using filters?

    Buchwalter
    Buchwalter
    11 years ago

    I am sure if someone lands in a closed facility for civil disobidience he will receive glatt kosher prison food.

    honestmodox
    honestmodox
    11 years ago

    Can someone please tell me why it is bad to have parents sign forms? This is no different than any other medical procedure. It is not infringing on anybody’s liberties.

    shmiell
    shmiell
    11 years ago

    “Civil Disobedience” doesn’t necessarily mean demonstrating, chanting, chaining yourself to a building etc.; it could be as simple as politely refusing to sign a form. Sharpton’s demonstrations are not very civil, nor is he.
    Signing a form would be agreeing that MBP is dangerous, which is baloney. Staying in a hospital is much more risky (infections, incompetent or negligent nursing,etc) , and no one is trying to stop that. If the DOH would interview the major Mohalim in NYC they would see that their sterile techniques are way above par and that there is really almost no chashash; there’s a bigger risk riding the subway with the baby. Having the Mohalim take a blood test once a year like other medical personnel or therapists is probably agood idea; rinsing and gargling for 60 secs with “zeks-und-ninetziger” b4 a bris is another one(just make sure to spit not swallow).
    Comment#s 28&29; really hit the nail on the head.
    The VIN “poskim” commenting here really don’t know what they’re talikng about; ask a real poseik.
    The real issue is not MBP; it’s the govt interfering in religious practice. Moslem circs are much more risky (the kids are older) and no one is trying to regulate them.

    hershel
    hershel
    11 years ago

    Prostitution when you have HIV is manslaughter,
    we should push the health department to mandate blood tests