JERUSALEM (VINnews) — An official response to the Chaim Walder affair has been published in the name of Rabbi Gershon Edelstein. VINnews published a response immediately after the suicide but since then we have learned from Rabbi Edelstein’s family that the response (i.e. that adulterers receive the World to Come but public shamers do not) was based on what Rabbi Edelstein told Chaim Walder himself before the suicide. The addition stating that the suicide was murder (because he was driven to it by those criticizing him) was not apparently said by Rabbi Edelstein himself but was said by some of his close disciples.
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The official response as published in the Yated Neeman newspaper Friday says as follows:
“The Gemara says: David Hamelech said to Hashem: I told them “he who is adulterous is liable for death by strangulation but receives a share in the World to Come but one who publicly shames his friend does not receive a share in the World to Come.” When we come to discuss this issue it is imperative that each person comprehend that his World to Come depends on this. Therefore it is necessary to know:
- Those who have been sinned against or whose whose dear ones have suffered must refer to the relevant authorities, whether this will only help them or whether it will prevent others from being hurt. Anyone who knows testimony on the matter must act similarly and obviously it is not Loshon Hora. However these matters must be dealt with confidentially, as it says “with discretion there is wisdom” and only by those who are experts on the matter and after consulting with a rabbi who is expert on the matter.
- The media is not the place for this! All the newspapers and journalists whose goal is to publish widely are transgressing a serious issur of public shaming and they need to be concerned about destroying lives and murdering those who they are publishing about, which is also totally prohibited. Since in each case the matter causes additional people’s lives to be ruined, the matter must be dealt with according to din Torah in a professional and discreet manner and as confidentially as possible. One must anticipate every issue and act in accordance with Torah law.
- All those involved in the matter who are not those suffering damage or their relatives are not helping the victims at all. All those who are involved in spreading things in the media, including obscene descriptions, are not coming to fix but rather to cause harm. Heaven forfend that children of Avraham,Yitzchak and Yaakov should follow the path of wicked people and seek “vengeance” and talk Loshon Hora publicly and a person cannot take the law into his own hands. This is the opposite of the holy Torah and he is deemed a murderer.
- These points are correct regarding every aspect of involvement in publishing in mass media, particularly in a generation of fast communication as in our time with “sites” and internet news and their terrible faults, as well as lehavdil in Chareidi newspapers which have always demonstrated responsibility regarding what is not reported and covered since “sometimes we must ignore” and the matter is determined by Gedolei Torah.
- Every fearing person should act wisely and educate his family, stressing the matter of reward and punishment, as well as Chazal’s statement “do not let your evil inclination persuade you that you can hide in the underworld, since you are born and die against your will and will give account on all of your actions.” Chazal mean also to say that a person should explain to his family that a person should never imagine Chas Veshalom that there is any justification for an act of suicide, which is very severe as explained in Chazal and in the poskim
These words were reviewed by Rabbi Gershon Edelstein and he requested that they be published.
Here’s the problem. Rabanim had the field to themselves for 60 years, they told us NOT to go to the police, to come to them, to deal with it in secret, under the radar. The result is we got was Yehuda Meshi Zahav, Chaim Walder, Eliezer Berland, Malka Leifer and too many others to count. both were prolific serial rapists, who were well known to Aaskanim and Rabanim.
We trusted our Rabonim and they shattered that trust, they allowed child rape to go on for years! in fact there was a vaad/ committee set up in Bnei-Barak by Rabanim where people were told to log complaints of abuse and guess whom they selected as head of this committee, none other than Chaim Walder!! Some cruel joke.
Then comes along Aaron Rabinovitch and puts an abrubt end to this Retzicha almost single handedly, he did in 2 month what all Rabonim were unable or unwilling to do for 30 years, and what do these same Rabonim say?? No no this is not the right way to do it!! come to us we will handle it in secret, under the radar…. let us handle this
This is the very definition of insanity, doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results! we have tried that for 60 years, and if we continue doing this we will unfortunately get the same results.
I would have thought attacks on children must be dealt with by the police. How exactly does “handled confidentially” differ from “hushed up?”
PLEASE clarify!
a) Is Rabbi Edelstein telling us it is halacha that I will have olam haba if I have an affair? Please answer yes or no
b) Is the Rov saying that a TRUSTED public CHAREIDI figure who is claimed by multiple people over many years to have violated d’oraisos that harm other chareidi yidden.should not be outed among the community ?
and most importantly,
c) Who is going to protect us in the chareidi olam from the crime, the abuse, the sham leaders and the false tzidkus that is out there if our gedolim are not going to??
Edelstein says that victims of abuse can discreetly go to experts after receiving rabbinic permission. There was one such rabbinically-approved organization in Bnei Brak called the Center for the Child and Family. Its head was Chaim Walder.
Rape is not just adultery.
The first and obvious glaring error which makes the whole letter moot is…
Chaim Walder was NOT and Adulterer, he was a rapist, even worse a child rapist. We are talking about children of 9, 12, 14 17 years old, according to testimony submitted the Tsfas Beis Din of Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, 22 cases came forward and untold more who did not.
there’s a HUGE difference between the 2 and we can ignore anyone who does not see the difference.
putting your head in the sand and ignoring the obvious is akin to helping the criminals
“All those who are involved in spreading things in the media, including obscene descriptions, are not coming to fix but rather to cause harm.”
Sadly, that is sometimes the only option. For decades and way too often, Rabbonim have covered-up abuse and been complicit in allowing abusers to change locations. To claim that “all those” who go to the media are simply trying to cause harm is simplistic. Why is it not possible to be dan l’kaph zechus and say that many of them are trying to help by publicizing the matter in order to save the community from harm? It’s disappointing to see such a weak, ad hominem, attack being used.
The attitude of “we shouldn’t talk about such things” only works to shield the abusers and allow Rabbonim to avoid responsibility.
While I don’t know what the reactions and views of this situation are in Israel, this reads tone deaf for America. This generation of Jews wants leadership that unequivocally stands and supports people coming forward with Child sexual abuse. We want leadership that understands our frustration with quietly and discreetly having to talk to the right person who is an expert in a certain area otherwise we’re doing something wrong. We want leadership that stands in front of their kehilla on Shabbos and says, I BELIEVE YOU, I WILL HELP YOU! This response is just the same old leadership.
I don’t believe the Rosh Yeshiva has been given true information. For the life of me I cannot understand why the opening statement is about either ish only, since he also molested children which is known to ruin people’s lives and did cause bloodshed. It is also misleading to say that someone who commits adultery has chelek le’olam haba. The Gemara in Bava Metzia 58 says that such a person is never taken out of gehenom, even after 12 months and has no chelek le’olam haba unless he does teshuvah. By Killing himself he transgressed another sin which also disqualifies him from olam haba. This person was an active menace to the tzibbur and brought about a great chilul Hashem. There is a mitzvah to be mefarsem to show we dont condone his actions and stop him and anyone else who is doing what he is doing, lema’an yishmiu ve’yirau. May Hashem have mercy and may this not cause any more anguish to victims.
Disappointing response.
Shining the light of shame is the only thing that stops serial abusers.
Just like they dealt with CW all these years thru Din Torahs?!
The גמרא יומא פו׃ states as follows:
מפרסמין את החנפין מפני חילול השם
We publicize flatterers i.e. two-faced people because they desecrate Hashem’s name.
רש״י explains it as follows:
מפרסמין אח החנפין.
שהן רשעים ומראין עצמן כצדיקים אם יש מכיר במעשיו מצוה לפרסמו מפני חילול השם שבני אדם למידין ממעשיו שסבורין עליו שהוא צדיק ועוד כשבא עליו פורענות בני אדם אומרים מה הועיל לו זכותו:
As they are evil doers and they show themselves as righteous people. If there is someone who recognizes their (evil) actions, it is a mitsva (good deed) to publicize them because of the desecration of Hashems name. That is be because people will learn from their actions and they will think he is a righteous person and furthermore when a punishment comes to that individual people will question why didn’t his merits protect him.
Sounds like a well meaning Rav but sadly he isn’t right here. Number one there is notba requirement to first speak with a Rabbi who is an expert in these matters. Having such a requirement can be very dangerous. Further, who is to decide which Rabbi is an expert. This particular rabbi, as great as he may be, is not an expert and yet he is intepreting Jewish law on the issues. I personally agree that there should be an investigation (like JCW does) or a court decision before publicizing stories in the media. In other words there should be a pretty good basis for the truth. Once you have this though there are definite advantages to publicizing the facts. These things have been swept under the carpet for far too long which perpetuates a culture of molestation and feeling in molesters that they will be protected. There has also been a culture of intimidation of and threats to victims. Furthermore the actual molesters need to be dissuaded. To hide the truth from the public perpetuates the LIE and feeds the disease that has become institutionalized in our communities.
Read this twice And think of how many molestors he has protected.
Very wise words from a gadol b’torah. But then the question is, CW has been doing this supposedly for a very long time and supposedly nothing has been done all these years. Probably that’s the reason why some of his supposed victims went to Haaretz to air their allegations. Also, how does one deal confidentially with a alleged perpetrator who denies everything in the face of overwhelming testimony and supposed evidence without a kol korah to warn others?
If the first complaints would have been dealt with properly that would be f fine. Problem is that accusers were silenced for years. Only when they became independent adults and felt empowered did it become known. Then it was too late to squelch and shove under the rug. Why in the ultra orthodox world where yichud is a big no-no can this crime esca p e detection.
#NotMyGadol.
As a community we must come to the realization that the gedolim of today are real Torah giants, but the people around them don’t give them information. Everyone should have his own rav and we should eradicate this concept of gedolim that speak on behalf of everyone. Its sad that it has come to this. Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurebach used to take the bus, he lived with the people anyone can access him. That generation of gedolim is gone, and the one we have left isn’t working.
עשה לך רב it says in the mishnah not תשימו רב על כולם.
May Hashem protect our generation and bring the geula!
His official response is not much of an improvement on his initial one. He’d rather lecture about not involving the media than wondering why it it was that only after media attention did Walder’s abuse came to an end after 25 years. Where was he until now?
The main lesson to kids should be about keeping them safe and listening to what they have to say and comforting them. Once that’s done, we can worry about if they have enough loshon hora magnets stuck on their fridge.
Secrecy and discreetness was murdered with the creation of internet. Never to be resurrected again.
This “official response” isn’t newsworthy or of any value. Here’s why:
1. If and when Yated Ne’eman (which published this “response”) apologizes publicly and unequivocally for their glowing eulogy and putting ZL after a rapist’s name, what they print is worth less than the paper it’s printed on. As things stand now, they have a clear agenda of providing cover for sexual criminals.
2. Any response from Rabbi Edelman is valid when it’s written and signed in his own handwriting, and after he’s clarified, in his own handwriting, that he conferred with professional mental health experts regarding this issue. This “official response” isn’t even signed, but only says on the bottom “One of the Teachers,” aka “Anonymous.”
apparently we cannot simply trust whatever we hear, actually it isn’t merely apparent, it has been obvious for a while.
When someone says that one of the Gedolei Yisrael has said something, whether it is Rav Edelstein or Rav Chaim Kanievksy, we cannot accept it blindly.
We are holding in a time of Emes Ne’ederes. If we hear something, 80 percent chance it is not Emes, and further investigating is necessary, but due to the Emes being Ne’ederes, there is a good possibility that the Emes will never be uncovered until Mashiach reveals himself.
If Rav Chaim cannot speak or recognize his daughter, as per her own words, we cannot verify if he really thinks we should take the “shot.”
Is this guy for real?
If you have no professional training of dealing with these matters, then say – “Sorry, this is not my field, you need to speak to the experts in these matters.”
Amateurs can do more damage than good.
Gut Shabbos
The are doubling down on STUPID!
The questions that has to be asked are whether the abuse cases are dealt with before they become public news and how can a beis din deal with it effectively so that the perpertrator does not commit such acts again. Also, if a person is an addict in these matters, if it is possible to rehabilitate him or her and if so, what can be done.
There is no prohibition to publicize the wickedness of serial transgressors.
This “Das Torah” publication was not signed by Rabbi Edelstein but rather anonymously. This foolish publication goes totally against what the Chaffetz Chaim writes in chapter 4 of Loshan Hora, paragraph 7. That is that the prohibitions of loshan hora to not apply to someone who has a long history of violating prohibitions such as adultery, and that it is permitted to publicize and humiliate the sinner, as his behavior has disqualified him from being a Jew, but rather qualified him as a transgressor that the gemora terms chanafim (Rashi explains this as wicked people who pose as righteous), and the gemora writes that we are to publicize the wicked disguised as righteous because of chilul Hashem.
Seducing a minor is termed “rape” according to secular and goyish law. The torah however defines rape as non-consensual. If an 18 yr old boy dates a 17 yr old girl, and they “fall in love” and marry, and have kids, according to secular law, it’s called rape. That is why some rabbonim take the adultery allegations much more seriously. But seducing a 13 yr old girl who has come for counseling is in some ways more harmful and evil than consensual relations with an adult woman who has separated from her husband but not yet officially divorced.
There was no repeat of the episode of Dina in the lifetimes of Shimmon and Levi. It is a stain of shame on our generation that we can’t purge our community from the many sexual predators.
What does this even mean?
Your own logic is flawed on many counts. First, a rodef is not your friend. So, the minute he becomes a rodef he is no longer entitled to the protection of his reputation and must be outed for the safety of the community at large.
Second, the Torah says a man should want to die before seeing the pinkie of a woman for prurious reasons. No such warning for lashon hara exists. Further proof you have twisted the Torah to protect your own colleagues.
Third, keeping things under wraps is a nice idea but given the decades of abuse that have gone unaddressed by gedolei hador — including yourself — the rabbonim cannot be trusted to handle this!!! So, transparency is the only way to protect future generations of children and may that fact be on your head.
Because, fourth, this is hardly a case of mere adultery. IT IS CHILD ABUSE and you share in his guilt when you mischaracterize that man’s crimes in order to minimize them. TITRACHEK MSHEKER! Pirkei Avot warns against judging the mighty leniently and reminds you not to trust yourself until the day you die.
You have failed klal yisroel here, even in this “clarified” statement. May you promptly make teshuva over this onaat devarim or share in his punishment. KEN YEHI RATZON.
Let’s face it, the huge number of Baal Teshuvahs in Orthodox Judaism have turned the tide on this. We are college educated professionals many of us and have been trained to be mandatory reporters etc. we are now cowed by others so easily and March to our own drummer in many cases. Just like we have upped the quality and quantity of kosher food and stores so too are we demanding greater accountability. The Baal Teshuvab movement has not only increased the numbers of frum Yidden but changed the whole tenor or Yiddushjeit in msny positive directions this being one of them
The Chazal that “Adulterers get Olam Habah, shamers do not,” is totally taken out of context. It is talking about a married woman who has a love affair outside her marriage. Both the adulterer and the adulteress fell in love and could not control their yetzer hora. They get misa, but that is their kapparah. But a child abuser, manipulator and rapist is a totally different matter. He ruins lives, and shames people 1000 times worse than someone who speaks loshon hora. No, in some way he also loses olam habah, he also did an Ivus Lo Yuchal Liskone. and the comparison to the Chazal is misconstrued.
I would urge anyone preparing to respond to this article to consider the very real possibility that a victim of Chaim Walder, and certainly other victims of abuse in our community, are reading *this* article and *your comments*.
And if they are, they are feeling especially upset after this article.
Please be careful and considerate.
2 points to ponder.
The articles starts off saying that he said mention that Gemara to CW but then in statement to the public it’s repeated again.
The original statement was officially put out as a response to what teachers should be telling their students at this time. So may we know what changed now? Shall we tell our students anything different other than omitting the so called addition of disciples?
Can we please have a recall handwritten statement for once? What’s with all these games? Especially since this so called changed statement only came out after we all saw the consequences of the first statement
Too late!
His family keeps putting the rabbi’s foot in his mouth with these vulgar explanations!
They keep doubling down on stupid!
What did R. Edelstein know about this, and when did he know it? 25 years of coverups, and now he says ‘trust us’???
I’m not sure why this became a platform to speak disrespectful about gedoli hador regardless of how you feel. In the language of some individuals you see that they don’t have much respect for other’s opinions only their own. It’s a shame.
אשרי הדור
This was how I understood his words all along
I do not believe anything these rabbinic handlers publish. It’s all PR.
Thank You For all the coverage and this clarity we now have.
Well, if this isn’t a load of bull dung.
This is dumb, and we all set it
Dasless Torah