LETTER TO EDITOR: Why do people think it’s okay to take any empty seat in shul?

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Dear VIN,
There is an issue that arises every week in many shuls that I believe should be addressed.

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When I visit a shul as a guest, I’m faced with a dilemma. I don’t want to take someone else’s seat, so I usually end up standing in the back or finding a corner. In addition to being somewhat uncomfortable, it is an even bigger problem when my children are with me.

Sometimes a shul member will approach me and tell me which seat is open. However this is not always the case, and even if they try to help, they don’t always know which congregants are away that Shabbos, or if they’re just late for shul.

In my experience, some people feel like they can walk into shul as a guest and take any vacant seat they find. This seems bizarre. How would they feel if they come into shul 15-20 minutes late (or later) and discover a stranger in their seat?

You may be thinking: Why can’t they politely tell the person to get out of their seat?

I don’t know about you, but I could never bring myself to kick someone out of my seat. I know it may technically be within my rights, but I just can’t do it.

I realize this is not as serious as the shidduch or tuition crisis, but I believe this is an issue and may have a simple fix. I’m thinking that every shul should have someone officially in charge of seating who will monitor which seats are available, and guests can approach him and be guided to an available seat.

This would prevent a lot of awkward situations, and be a solution for both shul members and guests to never need to stand in the back.

–Standing in the back for 2 hours

THE VIEWS EXPRESSED DO NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENT THOSE OF VIN NEWS.

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87 Comments
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Please be seated
Please be seated
1 year ago

Why would someone feel upset if someone had taken his seat in shul? He gets to be mevater someone and have hachnoses orchim- what a nice wat to praise Hashem and get one’s prayers answered. We go to shul to daven to Hashem, not to get honor.

Freefacer
Freefacer
1 year ago

There is a very simple solution to this dilemma.

We have an understanding in our shul (which happens to be a burgeoning kehila with a dynamic Rav and lots of visitors)…

Your seat is only your seat as long as you are there to sit in it.

I have a makom that I sit at for Daf Yomi, Shacharis, Mincha/Maariv and all Shabbos, however it is incumbent on me to be on time. If I’m late, and someone is in ‘my’ seat, I simply find another seat for that tefilla/shiur etc.

It is an excellent system that ensures that guests are never made to feel unwanted or uncomfortable, and motivates all of the congregants to be present on time.

lostinCA
lostinCA
1 year ago

BH I daven in a shul where the gabai approaches any unfamiliar face with a sholom aleichem, a siddur for the guest’s nusach, and an offer of a seat.
it’s basic hachnonas orchim, and like the writer, I”m shocked at the coldness I”ve felt in shuls where no one bothers to say hello to you and u feel like an interloper.

C R
C R
1 year ago

“Makom kavua” has become an excuse for leydigeyers and their farchnyokte krumkeit! You need “that” place in shul so your kavana can be straight? Get in the room on time. End of story! Your needs do not entitle you to disrupt the other guy.

Platchig Bieber hat
Platchig Bieber hat
1 year ago

If someone comes (really) late they should forfeit their seat.

Happy in my shul
Happy in my shul
1 year ago

Who could have such Chutzpah to tell a guest, who already feels awkward in a shul he’s not used to, to get out of this seat. This happened to me once. I just moved to a new neighbourhood and was checking out a shul to see if the right shul for me. I sat down in a seat in the back corner and someone who knew me a little came over and said this was his seat but I could sit 2 seats down. 3 minutes later the next one came and told me the same. I was moved like this 3 time till I just stood the whole 2 hours of davening with no one (many people knew me but really weren’t friends) even looking to see why I had to stand at the bookcase the whole. Needless to say I never did go back there. The next week I went to a different shul where someone came over to me AFTER davening was finished and told me that I sat in someone’s seat. If I come next week they will find me an appropriate seat. 30 years later I am still a member there. If I walk 8th shul and someone new is in my seat I just go and find a different seat. Why is this such a terrible thing that people won’t do. They would rather make an uncomfortable person feel even lower.

Liam K. Nuj
Liam K. Nuj
1 year ago

I don’t use how many minutes as a guide. I feel that if by Yishtabach/Borchu someone is not in shul, his/her seat is basically “Hefker” for that minyan.

Pekak
Pekak
1 year ago

If somebody comes 15 – 20 minutes or later, especially if there’s a simcha in the shul he forfeited his seat. I have a “good” seat in my shul and when there’s a simcha, even if I’m early I don’t approach my seat (which is paid for with a little plaque on it that says so).

Voice of Reason
Voice of Reason
1 year ago

While I have my preferred place in shul, I am reminded of the simple guidance from the Ari Zal. One should recite before beginning to daven the following sentence. הריני מקבל עלי מצות ואהבת לרעך כמוך. If we can express our commitment to אחדות ישראל, we have increased the energy of our tefiloh. If we allow disconnection, the ability to have our tefilos heard is limited. After all, doesn’t tefiloh betzibbur require that the members of the minyan are united as one? If someone is in my place, I choose to hope his tefilos are quality, and that he leaves behind some kedusha for me.

Inviting in Midwood
Inviting in Midwood
1 year ago

I hear you. Not sure where you are visiting. It is clear that it is not Flatbush/Midwood. Unfortunately we don’t have such a problem. I wish we did. As more and more people are abandoning their Rav and Kehilla and moving to Lakewood before they die, our Shuls are struggling to maintain a healthy size minyan. You are welcome to come to our Shul any Shabbos (or weekday) you like. You can have an entire table for yourself and children. We always give new faces or guests aliyos on any Shabbos they show up. Our Rav still speaks on the parsha/inyanei diyoma before Krias Hatorah every Shabbos morning B”H, and gives an afternoon shiur before Mincha as well. Nice place, good friendly Yidden. Come, give it a try.

Stop complaining.
Stop complaining.
1 year ago

Come on time to shul, if you come late you forfeit your seat to the guest who took it.

A guest
A guest
1 year ago

Midas sedom!

Yankel
Yankel
1 year ago

I think only people who have a problem when there is a stranger in their seat have this problem.

common sense
common sense
1 year ago

Perhaps there should be a few seats that say guests on them put in each shul so people have a place to sit when they visit.

gimple d'waterbury
gimple d'waterbury
1 year ago

Oh c’mon. I’m one of the latecomers that often has my seat occupied by guests. The way I see it is. You snooze you lose. If you want to get your seat be there on time. You cant occupy your bed and a seat in shul at the same time. Should I a guest stand until moshiach comes. He’s there ready to pray. Let him get comfortable.

Another tip for lakecomers is get yourself a table top shetender. Everyone knows that’s an occupied seat. It will still get filled but not as fast.

If I get there early enough – before borchu – and the guest is not a zaken, I may get awkwardly close so that they get the hint.

Oh and sometimes I might even give up my seat to someone that I think needs it more than me.

On the other side of the coin if you are a guest and come early to shul. That’s a pain in the neck. I’ll ask the people around me to let me know if the seats regular user comes around, so that I can move. But it doesn’t always work that we’ll.

#dontbelatetoshul

Yaakov Doe
Yaakov Doe
1 year ago

In my present shul, with the exception of the Yomim Neroim anyone can take any seat they want on a first come basis except the Rav’s seat. This was made clear to all when we began using the building. Frequently all seats are taken and folding chairs accommodate the late comers.
No one should ever come late for davening unless there are extenuating circumstance and everyone should strive to be one of the first 10 for the increased zechus.

A guest
A guest
1 year ago

ALERT: Midas Sedom in our midst

Charles B Hall
Charles B Hall
1 year ago

You have daled amot. You can sit anywhere in that space. And why were you late?

True story: I visited a shul once that had a 700 seat beit Knesset. Only about three dozen people were there. I sat down in an empty seat, nowhere near anyone else. Fifteen minutes later someone walks in and tells me that I was in his seat and had to move.

A few years later the congregation sold the building.

Open Minded
Open Minded
1 year ago

In my shul in Baltimore we ave a gabbai whose job is to help people find seats

yid
yid
1 year ago

it seems that a greater issue is the fact there are those coming 15-20 minutes late to shul, if one would simply abide shulchan aruch this issue would not have risen.

Dovid C.
Dovid C.
1 year ago

What I usually do in such a situation, is to find the guest a suitable seat elsewhere, and then kindly direct them to that seat. They are usually very appreciative , because they themselves feel uncomfortable knowing that they may be occupying someone’s seat, and when a shul member shows them to seat, they now know that they are fine.

Chill
Chill
1 year ago

The guests took your seat! You know which seats are empty in the shul, take that seat. It’s that simple! The kvua can improvise and create an extra seat whereas the guest does not have the privilege or the knowledge. Getting upset is unjustified when someone is sitting in your seat and if it makes a difference you can politely ask him to go to the other seat because I sit here all the time. This is no problem it’s only a problem for the one who scared to approach the guest.
Suggesting that one stand in the back until someone approaches him it’s not a solution. Asking the gabbai is!

mmmjm
mmmjm
1 year ago

My Rov has said repeatedly that no one is EVER to tell someone that they are sitting in their seat. We need to work on welcoming the stranger…this trumps all considerations of makom kavua. This should not even need to be said. Now, for your concern that a person who is a guest sat in “someone’s seat”, your first concern should be for this person’s needs, and not looking to criticize his “encroaching” on your “daled amos”. This is not a small issue. This is the biggest issue we face today. People do not see others anymore!!!!

Dovid C.
Dovid C.
1 year ago

And, there is no reason to stand in the back. Feel free to ask someone if they know of an empty seat, and more often then not there will be one for you.

One can also take the initative, when a guest comes, to direct them to an available seat. You don’t need to wait until they take yours. It is a great chessed a you are mikayim the mitzvah of Ve’ohavtem es Ha’ger, which (I think) also refers to anyone in a situation when they may feel like an outsider

Anonymous
Anonymous
1 year ago

My Rosh Yeshiva taught that our seat was only ours if we were on tim.

D. Fault
D. Fault
1 year ago

Thia can be a very tricky problem. When I go somewhere for Shabbos, before taking a seat, when possible, I’ll ask those who sitting near an empty if the seat is available. Sometimes that’s difficult in a shul where many come late. I’ll take an empty seat, but as soon as I sense someone standing nearby I’ll ask him about the seat. Often they’ll insist that the seat is empty, but after davening I’ll make it a point of thanking the person for letting me have his seat.

I Wonder
I Wonder
1 year ago

Do people pay for specific seats? If yes those seats should have names on them. Otherwise it seems tome that empty seats are open for all.

Maven
Maven
1 year ago

In my Shul the unwritten but adhered to rule is its your seat for the first hour. If the seat is empty at 10am anyone can sit there & the regular won’t ask them to move.
At the same everyone is welcomed whenever they show up. You can literally show up during Chamishi and be given Shishi. Its an open tolerant Shul were all are warmly welcomed no matter your dress, level of observance or time you show up.

Professor Ryesky
Professor Ryesky
1 year ago

At my old shul way out on Long Island (well past the Five Towns) we were fortunate whenever we made minyan. Would that there have been a dearth of vacant seats!!!

Chosid
Chosid
1 year ago

This is satire Right?

chamor hador
chamor hador
1 year ago

Ummm…why are you coming to shul late? This is YOUR audience with Hashem. And you’re keeping him waiting? And then, your biggest concern is the person who came on time and took your seat, the one you weren’t using for its intended purpose??

NO, you don’t have a right to disturb someone else’s tefila for your comfort. But, I ain’t no rov. Ask your LOR, betting he’s on board with me…

Nuff said

Shmuel
Shmuel
1 year ago

15-20 minutes late? That would be in the middle of psukei d’zimrah. If one is not in shul by psukei d’zimrah, his seat is a fair game. And, of course, after yishtabach, you just can’t move somebody out of the place, that’s about the worst thing you could do.
For a guest, it’s always a good idea to find a gabbai before the brochos, and ask him if there are unused seats.

Last edited 1 year ago by LFCYNWA
Moishe
Moishe
1 year ago

How did I know that it’s not a chasid that wrote this, how do I know it has to be a litvak or yeke that wrote this article.

My opinion
My opinion
1 year ago

It is better for people like you to daven at home

JacquiB
JacquiB
1 year ago

For heavens sake. No-one has to be ‘kicked out of a seat’.If it is someone’s seat he should poliely ask you to move up! My Shul would love to have such a problem!

Sabra55
Sabra55
1 year ago

So, I’d like to ask all of you a question. Many years ago, when I still lived in flatbush,I had a seat in my minyan. I was generally on time or within 10 minutes of starting. One shabbos, a young gentleman fresh out of lakewood, was sitting in my seat (he came early). I didnt say anything until after shacharis, when I quietly told him that it was my seat but he was welcome to stay there for the whole davening. The following shabbos morning, there he was again, in my seat. He saw me, yet completely ignored me. This time, I was not as polite. What would you guys have done?

motti@mott.com
1 year ago

What a terrible letter! How about the experience of the guest who goes into a shul and has no idea where to sit? Come on!!!

Nathan Rosenshein
Nathan Rosenshein
1 year ago

I will give you MY perspective, feel free to take it or leave it. When I am in Shul, be it weekday or Shabbos/Yom Tov, if I find someone sitting in my seat, I have a STRICT POLICY. I TAKE A DIFFERENT SEAT! To make a guest uncomfortable by asking him to move is NOT a Kiddush Hashem. If someone sits in my seat and asks me if this is MY seat, I tell them the above POLICY that I have, and then I INSIST that they stay put!

Nighthinker
Nighthinker
1 year ago

I remember hearing the following from Reb Elozar Kenig Zt’l the Rov of the Breslev kehillah in Tsfas:
A person who has a seat should come to shul early. Moreover, we should be mispallel that we should be zocheh to find a good place in shul, but that the most important thing is to know that ones real place is with Hashem. The latter being the foundation of davenen. Hashem puts in this n’soyon so that we are able to connect to him through it.

Jack
Jack
1 year ago

In our shul if a seat is empty it’s available for anyone.
Minhag is to leave the back row empty.

lazerx
lazerx
1 year ago

of course take a vacant seat, not an occupied one.
If the guy comes and finds you in his seat he can do one of two things.
1 tap you on the shoulder and ask you to move.
2 he can find a seat some where else and next week come on time.

is that such a big deal?

Ari
Ari
1 year ago

To put your question into the proper prospective…After 120 when you face the Bais din shel maala and you get asked this question you’ll now your past the hard part of your judgment day

jew
jew
1 year ago

i have a seat in the back of my shul – which means my seat is one of the first seats to be taken. i love it – the way i see it is an easy way to do a mitzvah. In addition i figure the person who took my seat will probably daven much better than i do and maybe ill get some schar for giving him my mokom.

The_Truth
The_Truth
1 year ago

There seems to be rule (official or unwritten) in many places, If not there by borachu they forfeit the seat, but I have even heard if member is not there by Ashrei Shabbos morning then they forfeit the seat. It depends on the “minhag” of how late people turn up, or how particular the shul is.
On the flip side – every shul needs to have a place for guests. If you are making a simcha – make sure there are extra seats. Where we used to daven, the 2 rows in front / behind the baal simcha would be given over to his guests & those people with makom kavua would have to find other seats. It depends on how many spare seats there are in a shul. I frequent a shul where seats are limited. I try to come early & ask for an empty seat – most people are around but come late – but people dont usually know if they will turn up or not. I feel bad when they turn up & I am in their seat – they usually say its fine, stay there & they hang around in lobby anyway.
A basic rule that should be everywhere: There should ALWAYS be people on welcoming committee – find out if person is visiting or new to neighborhood, & find them a seat. (Follow up with membership & makom kavua).
Problem with yomim norayim seats – many more seats are added to give everyone a seat – but then during year, when these people turn up part time, there is not enough seats.

ah yid
ah yid
1 year ago

Why am I being blacklisted again?

Early riser yet still seatless
Early riser yet still seatless
1 year ago

I think an important distinction to be made is if there is another seat available for the seat owner. In my Shul, seats are tight, and if someone takes my seat that I paid for, I will most likely not have a seat. Now, as some mentioned there are some Shuls with rules about how long you can expect to have your seat remain open. But in a Shul like mine, where there are no “rules”, I should be within my rights to politely ask for my seat back.

It should be noted, I come on time to Shul. I find it extremely frustrating when someone sits in my seat even though I’m there on time. When seats are so tight, how can you come early and just assume my seat is available? It’s particularly annoying that lately a young neighborhood boy (under Bar Mitzvah) has been showing up early and taking my seat. I don’t understand why his father allows him to do this.

Voice of reason
Voice of reason
1 year ago

Why is it that you can Walk in to an empty shul, and ppl will make you stand up right before shemona esra because you dared to sit down on his seat, when the seat on your right is empty?

Benyomin
Benyomin
1 year ago

I think people should just daven at home and just come to shul for the for coffee and for the kiddushim, and of course to socialize. Shuls are meant for people to hangout and let out steam.

Reb Dovid
Reb Dovid
1 year ago

In our shul guests aren’t welcome unless they RSVP before shabbos/yomtoiv. We don’t allow anyone who isn’t a member to use our bathrooms without permission. There is portapotty in the backyard which non shul members may use with permission. I have personally asked non shul members to leave the premise.

R. Moshe
R. Moshe
1 year ago

I moved into a neighborhood in Flatbush decades ago, in the Fall. I davened at a Shtebel nearby. I paid for a seat for Yomim NoRoim. Erev RH I ran to do Eruv Tavshilin in the last minute and I fell on the clean floor. I was in discomfort.
I came to Shul that night, both at night and in the morning a frequent guest was in my seat. I had no option but to stand in pain, people were aware but did not help. I walked out and davened in a different Shtiebel on Ave U for the next decades.

Clearly, if you are a frequent guest and you know you are in someone’s seat, MOVE.

In my opinion, these self declared and self serving rules that if the person is late you can take their seat are self serving rubbish. I grew up in Shuls of Shoah survivors and there was respect. Nevertheless, there should be someone to offer to help visitors, for sure.