Originally posted Dec. 21 4:00 PM
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Borough Park, Brooklyn NY – At today’s bail hearing in LA, where the U.S. Government accused the Spinka Chasidic Rabbi, R’ Naftali Tzvi Weisz and his assistant, Moshe Zigelman, of a grand tax fraud scheme, as reported by VIN News, the presiding judge has now set the Rabbi’s bail for 2 million dollars. and Zegelman at 1.5 million
The judge has also asked they should surrender their passports, and have electronic device on them for monitoring.
U.S. attorneys had argued that those individuals posed a flight risk, thereby prompting the judge to set this high bail in response. The rabbi is being represented by well-known attorney Donald Etra.
Among those also charged with taking part in the scheme was Joseph Roth from Tel Aviv, he was denied bail, and was sent back to federal prison. [VIN]
Jake, you’re the weasel. If you don’t think the laws of the US should apply to you, then go live somewhere else.
Many of you keep attempting to avoid Spinka’s and the others’ guilt by blaming the
Assuming they’re proven guilty, they’ve all done something bad, and one criminal doesn’t excuse the other.
Re: flight risk, he gets the money back as long as he shows up for court. Quit asking for special treatment just because he’s a Rabbi.
Point is, read the indictment, the moiser is a bigger crook than any of the people charged in the case. He was the one profiting millions from cheating the government. Now he’s the righteous one, and the weaker people he turned in to save his own skin are the crooks? His greed is what drove the scheme. His skin was in danger in the first place for other illegal fraudulent schemes he committed. He masqueraded as a baal tzedaka, and was so miserly he wouldn’t give $5,000 to tzedaka unlesss he got a $50,000 tax benefit. R.K. had millions of dollars, but still wouldn’t give tzedaka without getting a kickback. And in the end that nebach forced this guy to become a moiser. He’s nebach a moiser, uber a moiser is er.
You still don’t get it, you sick weasel. YOU- as in ‘Jeff from London’ don’t have the right to judge anybody at all. And stop trying to mask your hate behind out of context quotes, as nobody here is buying it. “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, says God”, or did you forget that, you weasel ? And why don’t you answer the previous poster directly:
Does Torah recognize the right of a host government to imprison somebody for financial crimes ? Yes or No, ignorant creep. Cite a halachic source if you have one, or just shut up. We’ve heard too many ‘justifications’ for sinas-chinom from your vile mouth. Sick.
1. Strellson & Co. Like it or not, I have been trying to present another angle to the events that have overtaken you. No I am not sitting in judgement on anyone and I am just another Yid, like everyone else, who would like to make it to Gan Eden but how are we going to make it there ? I recall a snippet from a drosho a while back. Mi Yokum Bimkom Kodsho. Neki Kapayim Uvar Levov (its in Psalm 24 ) We say it a few times a week and on Yomim Naroim. Do we understand what we are davening? Who will stand in the Holy Place ? One with clean hands (from Gezel) and a pure heart” Thats what the Torah defines as the gold standard of innocence and thats what we expect from our spiritual leaders. Not this legal jingo of “presumption of innocence until proven guilty”
2. you write “one who gets caught in wrongdoing (which he obviously never intended to come to light – hence, chillul hashem b’shogeg) ” That sounds like Purim Torah. Please spare us the entertainment. We are debating serious issues here. Actually, even if the Chillul Hashem is b’shogeg, who says its automatically forgiven ? We don’t find (in Shulchan Aruch) that one is exempt for Nezokin when it is b’shogeg. (Odom Muad LeOlam) Is Koved Shomayim any less ? In fact the case of Chillul Hashem described in Yevomot 79a was an inadvertent one, committed by Shaul, yet 7 genuinely innocent offspring of Shaul had to forfeit their lives over it. Isn’t that something ?
3.I have never questioned that the SA is the code of law by which we conduct ourselves. That said, we are living in Golus and we are required to make a Kiddush Hashem by being honest in all our dealings, not just between ourselves but also with the gentiles. There are many ehrliche yidden who have been able to live up to these expectations. You don’t make out that this is necessary. You appear to condone lying, paper fraud with possible revenue diversion etc You don’t accept the rule of law, (juries, imprisonment) in your host country. One could say that you are in agreement with that character in Megilla’s Esther who said “Vedosei HaMelech Einom Ossim” (Rashi says it means Jews don’t pay taxes) What a scoop that would be for the antisemites ! So the ADL have been wasting their time for the past 100 years as far as you and those you represent are concerned !
4. The defendants in this case may well enjoy the ” presumption of innocence”, for what its worth, but through their actions, as you have had to admit, they have created a terrible chillul hashem. You don’t have to defend the indefensible with perverse arguments. Hashem doesn’t need these people to be His representatives. Period. They have failed Him. It remains for them to do the honorable thing and hand over to their betters. A Good Shabbos to all of you.
To Jeff in London and all G-d’s other ‘assistant judges’:
Your lack of sympathy is not only un-Jewish, it’s also inhuman. Are you holier-than-thou weasels so perfect ?
Have you all reported every cent you ever earned- every nickel of derived benefit (corporate) as income ?
Stop judging, and let the Rebbe have his day in court. Even if some of these people did the wrong thing, they’re fellow Jews who made a mistake. Feel sad for their predicament and their families pain.
It’s like this, Jeffy – like it or not.
One purporting to be a ‘frum Jew, must necessarily accept the authority of the Shulkhan Arukh, and the poskim who follow. In fact, iirc, the Pischei-Teshuvah writes that a Rov today may not rule from the SA alone, rather from the Shakh, Taz, etc. as they are ‘bassrai’, but….you already knew that, didn’t you ? ROFL.
That being said, your pathetic attempts to apply various pesukim and gemaras to a practical situation are simply wrong, not to mention stupid. That you continue to attempt this in the face of explicit rulings to the contrary by the SA is clear indication that you do not really worship the God of “dvar hashem zu halakha”, rather you worship only your own opinion, which you then substitute as a litmus test for ‘morality’- in other words- avoda-zara.
1. Unlike you, I choose not to sit in judgment of a case I don’t know much about. What I do know, from years of experience, is how many of these indictments are based on perjury by federal agents, lack of evidence, and/or a simple misunderstanding of what actually transpired. Counts of conspiracy and mail-fraud and the like, are simply added as a safety net, and to further intimidate the defendant – but it’s good to see how obviously impressed YOU are by all this- especially your very Jewish ‘diyun lekaf zechut’ !
2. Not that you would know it, but the obligation of Bnei-Noach to establish batei-mishpat has absolutely no halakhic relevance to any case involving a Jew, and certainly not when said law contradicts Torah- which considers punishment by incarceration as cruelty. Had you actually bothered to study the relevant laws in Choshen Mishpat, you’d have become aware of the severe limitations of the ‘dina dmalkhussa’ concept, and how any assistance likely to result in jail time is an issur-gamur, not to mention mesirah- whose punishment dwarfs that of any type of geveiva/gezel etc. In fact, the poskim go much further, with the Mishne-Halakhos actually writing that in a country with a jury system there is no ‘dina dmalkhussa’ ! The poskim obviously don’t know as many pesukim & gemaras as you, do they Jeffy…The rest of your ignorant ramble doesn’t warrant comment, nor the juvenile attempt to conflate paper fraud leading to possible revenue diversion with gezel-akum.
3. As with in every other area, the SA lays down the law, governing criteria, etc. for the mitzva of ‘hocheach tocheach’ – your ignorance of these halakhot as well, comes as no surprise by now. Do you even know ANY of these people, as you sit in smug and ignorant judgment some 3000 miles away, you rasha ? How dare you ?! Don’t waste my time with more misapplied ‘maamarei chazal’, thereby casting further doubt on your identity as ‘zera shel avraham avinu’. Rather, learn some Shulkhan Arukh, then Tanya ch.32 – whose author just MAY have been as ‘knowledgeable’ a posek as ‘Jeff from London ‘.
4. Sure- there has been a terrible chillul hashem caused by this whole story, and continues to be. Yet the difference between one who gets caught in wrongdoing (which he obviously never intended to come to light – hence, chillul hashem b’shogeg) and a mosser who DELIBERATELY sets out on a path of retzicha, should even be clear to all the hysterical chillul-hashem police screaming on the site. I wonder how many of you sickos even wear a yarmulka to work- I mean, that might cause a chillul hashem too, wouldn’t it ?
Again, your collective paranoia and insecurities do not take the place of the Shulkhan Arukh, no matter how uncomfortable that makes you.
And ‘mida kneged mida’ – ‘kol hamerachem al habriyos, merachamin alav min hashamayim’, yes, gevalt indeed.
1. I am not sure Stettson if we have a difference of opinion over the significance of the GJ indictment. To start off with, you make it almost sound like an invitation to a party (with kosher ham ?). Yet by the end, you show you are somewhat worried by it. One of the previous respondents referred to the New Square case where some of the defendants received jail sentences. Such situations must be extremely hard on their families who must then be supported by the Kehilla. But does no one learn from this ? I must admit I only cursorily read through the 37 counts but that was quite enough. Perhaps, with smart attorneys, mazel etc etc, the case will fall through and/or some or all the defendants will get off the hook, certainly the Rebbe. But does a verdict of not guilty mean the same as innocence ? In my responses, I didn’t make reference at all to the Mosser. As you and others have said or implied he may well be a Rosho etc etc. I can understand you making him the scapegoat for everything. Does that make the defendants innocents ?
2. Surely you agree there is a requirement for Bnei Noach to have a system of law and order and the laws of the USA meet that requirement. I don’t see you disagreeing either that there is a principle of Dina DeMalchusah. I mentioned that in the context of Gezel Achum, (not tax evasion) as part of the indictment refers to the alleged conspiracy to defraud the IRS of millions of dollars through the use of false deeds of gift. Yes, by the way, what do you do with the possuk in Mishpotim, Midvar Sheker Tirchok ? (According my kitzur SA s’181 sk’ 7 thats an
issur to make a false claim under all circs.) True juries & incarceration are not part of the Jewish code (Shulchan Aruch) but it is part of the State’s set of laws, and if you disagree with them, you are always free to emigrate elsewhere , aren’t you ? By living in a country, you voluntarily accept on yourself to adhere to their laws. I notice in passing that in the American Oath of Allegiance, which all Yidden immigrating to the USA are required to swear, are the words “that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same” So to become a citizen of the USA, a Yid even takes a shevuo to adhere to those laws.
3. You are of course correct to allude R’ Akiva and the Mitzva of VeOhavto LeReachah Komachoh. Chazal tell us to be weary of too much ahava. Sometimes Hochoho, rebuke or criticism is even better. After all, Kol Yisroel Arevim Zeh LoZeh. Perhaps more to the point is that you have overlooked the other VeOhavto. You know the one we recite daily in the Shema. That one also alludes to making a Kiddush Hashem. Strangely, you also referred to Betzah 32b where it implies that a lack of compassion casts doubt on one’s Jewish identity. The context there is referring to people who do not give Tzeddakah or help to other Yidden (see Maharshah) I’m not sure why you would use that to cast dispersions on me. It doesn’t sound as if your Ahava is all that inclusive.
4. You have missed the point that I and others have raised and that is there has been, and continues to be, a Chillul Hashem BePharhesya with cases like this being reported in the media. So let me draw your attention to the Gemarah Yevomot 79a where it tells us that Dovid HaMelech agreed to hang 7 of the offspring of Shaul for Shaul’s act of depriving (not robbing) the Givonim of their parnassah, even though “the sons shall not be punished for the sins of the fathers” in order that there should not be a Chillul Shem Shomayim BePharhesya. So my dear Stettson, proclaim your Ahavat Yisroel. Thats fine. But where is your Ahavas Hamokom and Yiraas Shomayim? Not in sight. SHREI GEVAAAALT
According to the indictment the Feds have lots of audio tape recordings and some videotape. Along with the paper trail, whicvh acvcording to the indictment is fairly extenstive, I don’t think the case will “fall apart.” And if one of the co-conspirators’ PDAs was retrieved and has info on it, some much the worse for them.
For years, Beverly Hills lawyer and health care entrepreneur Robert Kasirer has fought off a string of fraud accusations and monetary judgments that resulted when his business ventures went sour.
While bond investors and lenders have sought repayment, Kasirer–the son of a philanthropist and health care executive–has continued to live a lifestyle that costs, by his estimate, $122,000 a month. Despite his admitted business setbacks, Kasirer serves on research boards at both UCLA and at the University of Pennsylvania, where he and his wife also chair the parents’ volunteer program committee.
….Earlier this month, Kasirer was subpoenaed by a federal grand jury in Los Angeles investigating Medicare fraud. His lawyers, citing the possibility of a criminal indictment, were able to place on hold a lawsuit seeking class action status that alleges he defrauded hundreds of municipal bond investors, according to documents filed in the civil case.
Many of those investors had already been victimized once, by Alzheimer’s disease, by the time they encountered Kasirer, according to documents in the 273-page lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court for Central District of California.
Kasirer is involved in numerous other legal scrapes, some related to the non-profit operator of the Alzheimer’s facilities, Heritage Healthcare of America, and some not. He has created dozens of companies under various names, and has been the subject of investigations by the Justice Department, the Internal Revenue Service and the Securities and Exchange Commission.
“We have all the evidence to prove Kasirer is a crook who defrauded elderly bond investors,” said Brian Barry, a lawyer representing hundreds of bondholders. “There were kickbacks to all of the parties involved, his wife was on the payroll and then the lawyer in the case simply destroyed all of the documents. The whole scheme was deliberate and detailed.”
…Earlier this year, Kasirer and his wife Debra were sued by Alliance Bank of Culver City for failing to make payments on a $750,000 loan they received in 2001.
…After using about $150,000 for construction work and furnishing of a second home, and lending another $250,000 to a friend, Kasirer said he had used “the rest of the money for my living expenses, as I am between career opportunities and my last business venture was not successful.”
He went on to cite a minimum of $122,208 in monthly living expenses, including: $16,000 for his gated house on the 600 block of Canon Drive in Beverly Hills; $7,600 for a ski house in Park City, Utah; $4,350 for auto expenses; $5,100 in religious dues and donations; $12,000 for his children’s tuition; and $45,000 for legal fees.
Kasirer’s personal spending patterns pop up frequently in the allegations involving Heritage Healthcare.
The investors’ complaint alleges that he “caused the improper transfer of bond monies to himself, his wife and/or his companies,” even while he was paid a salary of $920,000 a year from 1997 to 2000.
Debra Kasirer also received more than $1 million in salary and consulting fees from Heritage Healthcare through her own company, Mishkan Healthcare, which lists the couple’s Beverly Hills home as its business office, the lawsuit states.
Robert’s father, Jacob Kasirer, is an executive at Golden State Health Centers Inc. in Sherman Oaks and an active philanthropist who donated enough money to Bais Yaakov High School on Beverly Boulevard to get his name engraved on the building. His company was paid at least $198,000 in consulting fees by Heritage Healthcare and was listed as a supervisory manager in one of the bond offerings, according to the complaint.
According to a 1992 story in the Los Angeles Times, Kasirer was president of Beverly Hills Medical Holdings, which purchased Beverly Hills Hospital and became the subject of several lawsuits.
The lawsuit alleges that Kasirer, his associates, his wife and his father collected millions of dollars in consulting fees and illegal payments, such as feasibility studies, that ultimately caused the Alzheimer’s facilities to run out of money and collapse.
…But the lawsuit alleges that in 1996, as the Rancho Hospital offering was about to close, “Robert and Debra Kasirer decided to use the bondholders’ money to pay for a trip to Hawaii for themselves” by arranging for a board meeting to be held on Maui.
In 1999, the Texas Department of Human Services conducted an investigation of a Heritage facility in Houston where “residents requiring an incontinence program did not receive help, residents were abusing each other without repercussions and a raging scabies epidemic was not contained,” according to the lawsuit.
A Sarasota, Fla., facility was apparently built on a flood plain, causing an employee to complain that alligators often roamed the grounds and were a safety concern to the elderly patients, the lawsuit states.
I bet you a lot of this case falls apart at trial, and the dog Robert Kasirer is seen for the lying scum he is. Remember the Raphael Adouth case a while back- when the jury was shell-shocked by the raw anti-semitism and lies of the federal agents ?
Let’s see. Meanwhile, my prayers are with the families.
To Jeff from London and a few of the other kapos posting their ‘ahavat-yisrael’:
As I’m unsure which is worse, your ignorance of Torah, Jewish character, or legal realities in the US, I’ll comment on all of them.
1. A grand-jury indictment means nothing more than that an aggressive prosecutor, usually using perjurious federal agents, has managed to convince a few people that there may be enough evidence to support his version of the facts and secure a conviction. As Sol Wachtler famously put it, “Even a modestly competent DA could persuade a GJ to indict a ham sandwich”.
2. While chazal enjoin us to always be ‘dan lekaf zechut’, it’s sickening to read all the sinat-chinam and rush-to-convict statements posted here by supposedly frum Jews – well, not so frum according to R’ Akiva, but you conveniently overlooked that Jeff, didn’t you ? In fact, you show your halakhic ignorance when you clumsily attempt to misapply the gemara in B’K 113a/b to the situation at hand. We don’t rule based on the gemara, rather the poskim, i.e, the Shulchan Arukh, Tur, Rambam etc. The SA and the commentaries, in C’M 388, clearly codify the stringent prohibition of Mesirah, and how a mosser may be dealt with. In fact, the punishment for mesirah dwarfs that of stealing or the like- after all, a mosser may be killed by anybody, AND has lost his share in the world-to-come. Yes Jeffy, some of us actually believe in these things for real… According to poskim over the last 200 years, assisting in sending a Jew to prison in any way is absolutely forbidden. An attempt to distinguish between modern day US prisons and those of old, for halakhic purposes, would require reducing safek-nefashos to a statistical survey, which Torah does not allow. The fact that tax evasion doesn’t quite constitute gezel according to poskim is almost besides the point, your judgmental rant notwithstanding. How bizarre that, in attempting to justify your disgusting and anti-Torah attitudes, you display ignorance of not only halakha, but a simple pasuk in chumash !”Uviarto hara mikirbecha” doesn’t sanction mesirah, – it instructs us to kill an idol-worshipper (in exactly the same way as a few chapters earlier we are commanded to kill a ‘meisis’. If you knew any halakha at all – the similar din of a mosser and a meisis might hit you?!)
3. Dina d’malchusa in halakha largely supports the right of governments to collect taxes, but it does NOT accept many of the enforcement mechanisms employed by the tax authorities. Nor does it countenance any punishment by incarceration – none. In fact, the use of juries invalidates dina d’malchusa according to some contemporary poskim – but your artscroll gemara doesn’t cover that, does it now Jeffy ?
4. Jews are expected to be merciful, everybody makes mistakes, but we don’t scream ‘jihad’ or ‘let em fry’, do we Jeffy ? In fact, the gemara (betzah 32b)implies that a lack of compassion casts doubt on one’s Jewish identity. So tell us, Jeff- are you SURE that your papa didn’t have a little fling with the maid and bring you home ? On the other hand, as you so generously suggest what others can do with their time (God Forbid) in prison, might I reciprocate, and wish you to utilize all the time between your chemo treatments for teshuva and maasim tovim….as you prepare !
I proudly join many in wishing for the best and speediest outcome of this horror for all the individuals and their families involved. Nobody deserves what you’re going through – be strong, and you will thrive and survive.
(Hope that doesn’t hurt your ‘Israel advocacy’ program too badly, Jeff in London ?)
Besides for a very special place waiting for the moiser in Hell, what are we doing to help him get his just reward soon???
Anonymous 1:33 whines & dreys:
“what did spink do wrong they took a loan for 1 million dollars for 3 months when they payed the money back they asked the borrower we don’t have the full amount help us out with 5 percent is that a crime for the borrower (spinka) they didn’t do anything wrong the lender that he gave in the loan as a donation he is guilty so why is all this hatred on the rebbi & his mosdos for lending money from people ????????”
According to the allegations in Paragraph 26 on Page 7 of the Indictment:
“Defendants WEISZ and ZIGELMAN would cause charitable
contribution receipts to be mailed by defendants Yeshiva Imrei
Yosef, Yeshivath Spinka, Central Rabbinical Seminary, Machne Sva
Rotzohn, Mesivta Imrei Yosef Spinka, and other Spinka charitable
organizations to R.K. and other conspiring contributors in the
full amounts of their nominal contributions to the respective
Spinka charitable organizations.”
Note the phrase “full amounts.”
According to the Indictment (and I stress that this has yet to be proven), the receipts given were given receipts which reflected a complete and unfettered donation, with nothing returned. The receipts DID NOT reflect a loan transaction.
These receipts were, allegedly, subsequently used by the donors (or “lenders”) to claim a deduction from gross income in the FULL AMOUNT of the loan, including the returned amount.
Had the receipt documents reflected that the transaction was a loan, then Anonymous 1:33’s remonstrations would not only be valid, but the Government would probably not even have a case against the Rabbi.
[Again, these are allegations in the Indictment. They have yet to be proven (and, if I were sitting on the jury, I would certainly want to see a copy of the receipt document if I were to vote for a conviction). Unless and until these allegations of the Indictment are proven, then the Rabbi and the other named defendants are presumed to be innocent.]
What is Chillul Hashem ? Well R. Yanai says (Yoma 86a) Wherever one’s chaverim are ashamed of a person’s Shem Ra. A Grand Jury indictment would fit that bill very well, most people would say. However, not to worry, there is Teshuva for Chillul Hashem, though the prescription includes Yissurim (also Yoma 86a). So for those respondents concerned about Tefisa, Pidyan Shevuyim and having Rachmanus etc, lets get a sense of persepective here. Surely you wouldn’t want to deprive the defendants of a Kapporah. Sitting in Tefisah is not half as bad as some Yissurim some people have to suffer (Lo Olenu). They will also have the bonus of having the time to digest and internalise all the Torah values they have learned but appear to be lacking.
well you dec 23 2:34 sound like such a bum the hole thing you are saying is 10% 10% you reported your sister for the money only you are not doing this for trying to be good you are a rusha a bum for 10% you want to see people in jail why for 10% and the other for free you all that say 10% that why? are the same musser as rk nothing else you are like a self hated jew you have no ahves yisral you have 0% you are worse than the irs a lot worse you well see if you keep it up hashem punshes a musser very harshly if you would have a little blief in hashem than you would make money with out being a musser on your sister. if you are kosher with money the reward hashem will give you is extremly big.
what did spink do wrong they took a loan for 1 million dollars for 3 months when they payed the money back they asked the borrower we don’t have the full amount help us out with 5 percent is that a crime for the borrower (spinka) they didn’t do anything wrong the lender that he gave in the loan as a donation he is guilty so why is all this hatred on the rebbi & his mosdos for lending money from people ????????
also people have no clue what a chillul hashem means
there was once a yid that was invited to a dinner by the london prime minister the diner had a system that every curse the people changed seats & he had a problem cause the food was ordered for him kosher & his dishes where kashered by his first seat so ho can he change so when he changed seats he took along his dishes with him there where some frei people there thwy where saying what a chillul hashem he is doing after the party the prime minister asked him I noticed u taking along your dishes every time u changed seats why did u do that so he explained him the hallacha he repected him & gave him lots of koved after that one of the frei people told the prime minister that he is jewish he told him well perhaps I haven’t seen u taking along ur dishes when u changed seats lesson to be learned is a chillul hashem is doing something against the torah not something that the goy things u stupid this frei yidden said he is doing such a chillul hashem but actually he made a BIG BIG KIDDUSH HASHEM
Annon December 23, 2007 2:34 PM,
I’m sorry to hear that your sister didn’t pay a fine, after all based on your statements one would conclude that you reported her so you can get the 10% reward. Don’t give up I’m sure you can find some other family members. Its a regular sales business, knock on enough doors, you’ll get there.
The indictment alledges that the defendants illegally took 7.5% of the laundered money ($7million), which accrues to $750,000. However, what is only alluded to is that they were in a conspiracy with RK and others to defraud IRS of the say 40% tax relief that the $7 million attracts. That would be “Gezel Achum”, bigtime, which, following R’ Akiva in B”K 113a is a DeOrayssa as well as a Chillul Hashem (for which you forfeit Olem Habbah), NOT a Tous Achum. It appears from many respondents that we in the Orthodox Jewish kehillah are particularly cocerned that frauds like this are taking place at all and feel the need rightly to condemn it and disassociate ourselves from it. “Uviarto Haro Mikirbechah ” We are fortunate in the West to live under benign governments and there is no excuse for not adhering to Dina DeMalchusa Dinah (= Pay your taxes! ) cf B”K 113b, particularly as taxes are the means to fund benefits to the community. Furthermore, how do we expect the government to accept our advocates on behalf of Israel if we don’t conduct ourselves properly ? What we are lacking in some religious schools, yeshivos, mosdos is the teaching of good citizenship.
Anonymous 4:14 said…
For the sake of argument, let us assume the spinka is guilty. What did he do with the money? Buy Gucci shoes and vacation in Paris and the carribean? He held out dozens of yungerleit in kollel and did other chasadim that no-one knows about. And when an MO cheats on his taxes? So his wife can have a Lexus and kids can have porsches, and wear the latest goyish styles, thats OK? With some of the Jews on this blog, who needs anti-semites.
==================================
A) it makes no difference what was done with the stolen money.
B) How can anyone with half a brain knock the MO for buying fancy cars and the latest ‘goyish’ clothing???
The charaidi areas of NY and NJ are covered with the latest from lexus, Infiniti, Acura and lately I’ve been seeing more and more ‘heimisheh’ yiddin in MB and BMW rolling gas chambers. (Couldn’t they at least wait until all the survivors are gone, r”l?)
And stylish clothing?! Only the MO women dress like menuvolim birshus hatorah?? Have you looked at what’s going on in BP, Midwood, Lakewood, etc for the last 25 years? YSL comes to BP to find out what to design for next spring because unzerer tzni’usdik froi’en are already wearing it!
For the sake of argument, let us assume the spinka is guilty. What did he do with the money? Buy Gucci shoes and vacation in Paris and the carribean? He held out dozens of yungerleit in kollel and did other chasadim that no-one knows about. And when an MO cheats on his taxes? So his wife can have a Lexus and kids can have porsches, and wear the latest goyish styles, thats OK? With some of the Jews on this blog, who needs anti-semites.
Dag,
A person has a right to a trial by a jury of his peers where the government must prove their case against him. That is because he is presumed innocent. if he was presumed guilty there would be no need for even a show trial.
I just took the time to read the 40 page indictment, and I must say, that from reading the headlines it sounded much worse.
Most of the indictment revolves around an illegal money moving enterprise. That said, if you send your nephew a bar mitzvah present to Israel, and send it with Aunt Millie on an El-Al Flight you are guilty!!
The case will crumble quickly, but where will the press be then?? The rebbe was dragged into this mess by a low life.
Risk of flight means to a Judge that he may leave the state or jurisdiction, not that he may come back after an extradition hearing. No Judge wants to be the one who let him go. Also $2MM is not that high. Many Judges impose that much on high profile people and even regular white collar criminals in NY. I once had a Chinese speaking 60 old man who sold the DEA 2 kilos of cocaine on tape and they gave him a 1.5MM bail which he could not make.
This was not an indictment based on a tax violation which is out of DC but was a money laundering case out of the AUSA in LA and they want the publicity like Southern District AUSA get with Helmsly and Martha Stewart. So far they are getting as much as they dreamed for. I worked for Justice and I did not get the idea they were anti-semites. They just hate every crook, they think everyone is a crook and unfortunately for the Rebbe HaShem Yerachem, most cases are built on informants who have been caught and they are looking for something called a “5-K” letter to get their sentence reduced. Most people –Hamish and otherwise– think the Feds are “keystone cops” and “pink panter” inspectors, but they are not. They are really smart and well trained. They have five years to work on a case and they hate to lose, so by the time they open the indictment it is like a base ball player rounding third and heading for home. HaShem Yerachem on the Rebbe and other Yidden who get caught up in this, but please take some mussar and stop this non-sense and have faith in the Almighty.
Alexander Novak, Esq.
Regarding:””The government are the thieves. Who gives them the right to take 40%, 50% and more of someone’s income? Anyone who can save yiddishe gelt from going down that toilet is doing a mitzvah.””
Australia takes more, as well as Canada or Great Britian. How about the State of Israel Ho ho Do they ever take alot. We have to obey the laws of a just king
DAG,
Don’t ask me, ask the moderator.
Joseph, so why have we allowed the unsubstantiated claim that the R.K mentioned is the same 1 that has been maligned over and over on this blog.
“The government are the thieves. Who gives them the right to take 40%, 50% and more of someone’s income? Anyone who can save yiddishe gelt from going down that toilet is doing a mitzvah.”
Well they need to take 40% – 50% to fund the welfare and other benefits being paid for people like you who don’t want to work for a living.
I disagree with many comments here.
In my opinion, even if Chas V’shalom, any defendant was found guilty by a court of law, one must still assume he is innocent.
I surely will.
Where getting to the truth in many court cases is not the objective, but rather to score a hit,how can one even think or assume that the DA office is going for the truth,therefore,I feel no matter the outcome, the defendats are innocent.
first if you google RK you will find that he just settled a case with the SEC
I dont know if one has to do with the other , but if it is true that he helped in entrapping others , all I can say is YESH DIN
as for others who say “let him rot” or he is a crook .. etc
I will not get in to the details of what is correct to do , and what some do to “survive”
But if any of you have learned basic shulchan urech , you will see that there is no other averia where the din is that you are allowed to …..
do any of you know the halachos of tuis akim ?
so to say this is in the category of lo zignof ,is in itself a shailo
last but not least , the MITZVA of “pidyon shvium” is one that you are not to judge why you are helping get a yid out of tfisah
you have the “mitzvah” of getting him or her out and doing everything in your power to acomplish it , there are very few of us who are involved in this mitzvah , yet those who are deserve a lot ot credit and i for one would love to be in their place when they come before the “kisai hakoved”
we have organizations that help the sick , the poor, the needy and others who try to bring back yidden to yiddeshkeit , but yet you never see 1 fundraiser from those who help get yidden out of tfisah , or help yidden when they are nebech sitting in tfisah,
Maybe this will be a wake up call for a askan to open a organization , ( there are 2 already – but the specialize in diffrent things – )
I will recongnize the ALEPH institute ( lubavitch )
and will also recongnize a organization for KJ ( forgot the name ) that takes food and livens up the spirits of those who are nebech in tfisha
May we all be zoceh to the ultimate redemption
DAG,
Lets not split hairs. The Supreme Court of the United States is the final arbiter as to what the Constitution guarantees. Not everything must be explicit. Most rights guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution are in fact implicit.
In Coffin v. United States, 156 U.S. 432 (decided in 1895) the U.S. Supreme Court determined that the Constitution of the United States guarantees the presumption of innocence.
(As far as “RK”, he is identified in the charges last week as “R.K.” in the actual text of the charges as well as in some media accounts. In didn’t take long for people to realize who “R.K.” was. And of course he is entitled to the presumption of innocence based on U.S. law and more importantly based upon TORAH law.)
The information is from the indictment which is public mr genius.
the fact that r.k. had to set the rabba up and create a story , bring pictures in, shows that the FBI did not have a case and wanted to create one and have proof. R.K. must have made some deal by telling them he will give them a BIG story to crack and they will be heros.
Jospeh, the text of those Amendments do NOT guarantee any such right. The best one can argue is that such a right follows from the terminology in those Amendments. You will find NO statement in the Constitution or any of the Amendments that asserts a person’s right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. I stand by what I said.
I am not sure what illegal search and seizure has to do with this….
Why do you presume the information you have about R.K.’s role is accurate? perhaps you are basing your presumptions on faulty information. Where is this information from in the first place?
Voice of Reason:
Your 12:37 posting may well prove to be on target.
However, consider the following:
Bureaucratically speaking, a criminal tax prosecution is among the most complex criminal law enforcement actions regularly undertaken by the U.S. Government.
It typically (though not always) starts at the level of the front-line IRS agent, who then bucks it up the IRS bureaucracy (and through all of the approval levels), all the way to IRS Headquarters at 1111 Constitution Avenue in Washington.
Once approved at IRS HQ, the file is given to some GS-one-half clerk, who walks it across 10th Street to the Justice Department, from which it must make its way through all the approval levels of the various bureaucrats, all the way down to the U.S. Attorney’s office.
Then, the U.S. Attorney must present the case to the grand jury and they must agree that there are reasonable grounds for a criminal indictment.
By which time, Uncle Sam’s boys and girls have collectively worked a few hundred hours on the case. After such investment of bureaucratic resources, they figure that they may as well spend a week or so trying the case in the court.
[Which means that there may well have been ample opportunity to settle the matter before it got into the hands of the Justice Department.]
[Again, I presume (and encourage others to presume) that all the defendants are innocent unless and until proven guilty.]
****Why people inform:
They get a ‘stay out of jail card’ thats why!
For me:
I would do it for free! to clean the scum out!It is a holy mitva!! Then the IRS pays 10% reward!****
B’ezras Hashem you will see the error of your statement. I hope you never actually “do it for free.” and do such a tremendous avlah.
You have a lot of hatred for your fellow Jew (if you are really Jewish). Concentrate on Ahavas Yisroel and not Sinas Yisroel.
Dag; Furthermore, during Presidnt Ronald Reagan’s term/s, one of the Secretaries (Ministers) in his Government was indicted and subsequently resigned. At his trial he was cleared of all charges.
He then asked a [rhetorical] question; “Which office do I apply to, to get back my reputation?!
Dag 4:57PM The US Constitution DOES guarantee that no property shall be taken WITHOUT DUE PROCESS.
To answer your second question. YES. I could, and I am judging RK favorably. (Dan l’Kaf Zchus). But I’m having great difficulty with several of the particulars; a) If Two [or more] people are part of a “deal” and then the Gov’t “turns” one of them, I could understand. But MR. RK did NOT “deal” w. Rabbi N. Weisz. He only [allegedly] “dragged” him into a “case”; b)How can one “use” the friendship and warmth of another person to [allegedly] “entrap” him. Regardless of the motive; (i.e. Ulterior or Superior).
DAG,
You are factually wrong. The presumption of innocence is part of the United States Constitution. For the record, the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments (as well as any of the 29 amendments) are a part of the constitution.
Secondly, the TORAH requires this same presumption of innocence of INDIVIDUAL PRIVATE CITIZENS.
And thirdly, yes “RK” is entitled to the same presumption.
you all make it sound like rabbi weisz has stolen money from you with your nasty hateful comments against chasidic jews. and that you follow the shulchon aruch etc..
which is an act of revenge.
“They get a ‘stay out of jail card’ thats why!
For me:
I would do it for free! to clean the scum out!It is a holy mitva!! Then the IRS pays 10% reward!
“
Oh really? Well then you are a bigger sicko then the Spinka. He may have done illegal stuff but he wasn’t mean to anyone. You are admitting you would be point back SHLECHT! Open your books. I’ll find you plenty of shmutz!
Big Wheel, the US Constitution does NOT guarantee people the right to the presumption that they are innocent until proven guilty, although most would claim that the idea follows from the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments.
In ANY event, while it is true that such a presumption undergirds our system of Jurisprudence, you must understand that the presumption of innocence is ONLY required of a court, not of a private citizen.
I also wonder, Big Wheel, if you, yourself are willing to judge “R.K.” Lkaf Zechus, or presume he is innocent of what people here have claimed that he has done, until proven otherwise?
OK its enough I think that by know I understand what kind of flight risk they are posing.
Why people inform:
They get a ‘stay out of jail card’ thats why!
For me:
I would do it for free! to clean the scum out!It is a holy mitva!! Then the IRS pays 10% reward!
For those of you who say “everybody cheats” that true but to what degree?
It is like someone getting up from a Shabbos nap and inadvertently turning on a light. Compared to a ‘Shabbos Goy’ eatng a bacon sandwich in his car when Shabbos services gets out.
Once my sister didn’t report some income. The IRS just said you need to pay this much. The whole matter was done administratively and without even a fine (but don’t do it next time!)
I am not defending Weisz if he did this. But until not found guilty (and even if so, I will ask my local rabbi what the halacha is), I have to assume his innocence. So until then, even if his arrest caused a Chullal Hashem, I can’t hold anything him against him, since he may be innocent. You on the other hand are presuming him guilty before being proven. So who is going angainst the law and halacha here, you or me?
No one is defending dishonesty we are just not allowed to judge it a moser on the other hand has a different set of rules.
if you play with fire you get burns
What makes me sick & my skin crawl is that all the no good gangsters
thieves & pedofiles & their enablers (ie. the people that they have bribed in one way or another) etc. are all extremely makpid on loshon hora & being dan l’kaf zechus (by all others) – It’s absolutely sickening. Just pick & choose the mitzvos that you can use as a tool to your benefit all others are optional.
This is obviously a case that was carefully investigated with bugs etc. (unfortunately) & they have the goods – the question is only how many korbonos there will be.
Anon. 9:43AM Since you are “a poshute Shulchan Aruch Yid”, did you ever hear of a Mishnah, or the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, where one is presumed to be innocent until PROVEN GUILTY in a court of law?! I, personally am willing to let the court/s decide on guilt or innocence. Until then I reserve judgment! Furthermore, I hear from members in the Spinkar Kehillah that Rabbi Weisz and his family are doing very much CHESED in a DISCREET manner. The key word is DISCREET (pls. lk. up in dict.) Unfortunately, [despite the fact that you are a good Jew and a fine person] your prejudice is [perhaps] unwittingly coming through in [between the lines of] your post.
Anon 9:43
What you seem to forget is that part of the basics of Shulchan Aruch is being dan lechaf z’chus period, no matter if you understand something or not. ‘s hard for you or not.
I don’t think there was even one person that has justified the despicable underhanded conduct of this Kasirer – They are just upset at the chilul Hashem & thievery that goes on & at the people rushing to defend & justify the perpertrators as if it’s business as usual & any normal mosod or individual cheats as much as they can get away with.
This belief & attitude (which is a disgusting sheker & a motzi shem ra on klall yisroel) is what causes this kind of Chillul Hashem in the first place (if you buy into that philosophy you begin to think that if you don’t cheat you are a fool & a shnook) and prompts the angry remarks by those that make an honest living & don’t resort to geneivishe shtiklech.
It is quite possible that, after lengthy negotiations, there will be a guilty plea to accounting irregularities, and relatively minor fines. The probability is that the Rebbe’s involvement will be found to be marginal, and he will get off completely. This is probably closer to the truth. There was a case of money laundering at MTJ 25 years ago, and it was clear that the Roshei Yeshiva had nothing to do with it. A lot of cases are highly publicized in order to remind people that they have to follow the law, and eventually settled becausae the IRS needs to collect their taxes more than they need to keep people in jail.