Queens, NY – A passenger who left his seat to pray in the back of a plane before it took off, ignoring flight attendants' orders to return, was removed by an airport security guard.
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The Orthodox Jewish man, who wore a full beard, a black hat and a long black coat, stood near the lavatories and began saying his prayers while the United Airlines jet Flight 9 to San Francisco was being boarded at John F. Kennedy International Airport last night.
When flight attendants urged the man, who was carrying a religious book, to take his seat, he ignored them. Two friends, who were seated, tried to tell the attendants that the man couldn't stop until his prayers were over in about 2 minutes.
When the man finally stopped praying, he explained that he couldn't interrupt his religious ritual and wasn't trying to be rude. But the attendants summoned a guard to remove him.
Robin Urbanski, a spokeswoman for United Airlines, said flights cannot depart if all passengers are not in their seats, which risks a delay, and it is important that passengers listen to the instructions of the flight crew. [AP]
Anon. 10:04PM You are [probably] right! But how many [Chassidic] Jews were caught throwing bombs or hijacking planes?!?!?!
April 17, 2008 5:04 PM
Hi I a Live In Miami FL
AKA
Iyr Hanidachas USA ,ALL YEAR
Where Machloikes, divisivness,selfishness,
lack of Derech Eretz and total absence of hacnassas orchim
is the rule of this modern sodom v’amoireh
Yes NYers are rude Yes some cause a tremendous chilul Hashem.
However it is what drives our Frum economy and without the NY traffic Miami FL locals could not support the Kosher stores and resteraunts.
So when we uptight locals complain and look at you like the enemy, just chuckle inside because it is highly likely that they have fled the north to Miami for un-flattering reasons or just enjoy being to themselves and not having to support Yiddishkiet.
Enjoy the sun and fun!
Great to have Y’all here!
a Kosherin Pesach
MIAMI BEACH LOCAL
April 17, 2008 7:35 PM
———————————–
Get a life, either you ran from New York to get a new identity and forget your past or you are saying you are a local and you are really stuck in New York.. NICE TRY
Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach says it is permitted to sit and daven in a plane-even preferable so not to disturb others-my Rosh yeshiva said that was correct what he said-R Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and my Rosh yeshiva are good enough for me
Anon. 6:50PM. …”Mah No(y)mar U..mah N’daber… Farshtayst??!! Sorry, for the “Foreign language”! …and then THEY (the Jews) cry “anti-semitism”…
He was on the wrong airline.
People like him should fly only Air Baheimish.
Not that I think quoting R. Yaakov Kaminetsky would make any difference to this specific person, but just in case others that are reading might be swayed by his opinion, Rav Yaakov is quoted by his talmid R. Jacobs as being of the opinion that even at a highway rest stop one who feels that he will be able to be michaven better by sitting in his car as opposed to standing outside his car and incurring the curious stares of passerbys should by all means daven while sitting in his car.
___________________________________
I actually heard that R’ Yaakov himself would SIT on a plane. The way it was told to me it was seemingly out of Derech Eretz and an avoidance of trouble and Chilul Hashem. I would also assume that this gentleman most likely thought he had enough time to finish-but would he start if he knew he COULD miss his flight and he can daven in a few minutes just the same.
I never knew that davening near the lavatory was Halachically permissible.
I think the opportunity should be taken (by Rabbonim) to educate frum travelers about the proper way to behave regarding davening etc on a plane & in public so as not to cause chilul Hashem – This
should be basic derech eretz & menchlichkeit but unfortunateley there are many of “us” that only see their own needs & have utter disregard for others (especially “goyim”). It comes from farshtunkene Gavah. I don’t know about this or any particular incident where there might be mokom to be dan l’kaf zechus – but this scenario is leide far too common & there is no legitimate excuse most of the time – juat plain poshut gayvah.
I too live out of the New York area. I moved away because in my travels I discovered that in other areas people were actually nice to each other, not rude and nasty as we were in NY.
I come to NY once or twice a year to buy clothing. It is hard to find livush out of NY area.
But almost every time a NYer comes to our town to visit, we all are subjected to rude arrogance.
What is interesting, is that the group that does not tend to do that, are the Satmar travellers, we seem to get a lot of them lately. They tend to be very polite, and don’t leave town without coming to the shul office to pay what the promised during their mi’shebeirach. And the Monroe are even more polite than the Willi people.
The worst are the Mod Oths, who are often arrogant, and quite ready to tell you how they do it in NY.
But it is not just the NY Jews. IT is all NYers. There is a store I know, who put up a sigh reading, “We Don’t Care How You Do It In New York.”
I like the bumper sticker, “If it is Tourist Season, why can’t we shoot them?”
or, “Welcome to XXXXXX, Now GO HOME.”
These reactions are from trying for years to be nice to the NYers, and getting slapped in the face for it.
I had one gues, an oirach I took home from shul Fri night. Before kiddush he used the bathroom.
The bathroom had two rooms, so the sink was in a separate room, so you may wash and make a bracha.
I don’t use the pre-cut paper in the toilet area, as it is not soft. I use Puff’s with Lotion, and always have a few open boxes in the bathroom.
That brand is always well separated, so there is no tearing, and they are very soft and comfy.
This NY guest, balled us out for not having “shabbos paper” !!!!
Well, I thought, and still do, that my way was at least as good. Certain just a kosher, and softer to boot.
He was also rude at the table, complaining about our town, while he was eating our food. He also complained about our mikvah, and a few other things.
He quickly made me sorry I invited him. I don’t expect thanks, it is a mitzvah I do happily, but at least don’t be rude and complaining!
As far as the guy on the plane, maybe he thought he had more time, and wanted to get the davening out of the way before the plane took off. Maybe he did not judge the time well, or misunderstood the stew beforehand. Once he started Shmoney Esrai, the Shulchan Aruch is clear that he was correct to finish. Maybe he was wrong to start, but once he started, he had no choice. Airline rules do not trump the Shulchan Aruch.
But, he should have checked with a flight attendant first and told him/her that he would be back there for 5-7 minutes, and gotten approval first.
Somehow I think if the passenger had been a fellow Muslim he would not just have been rescheduled, he would have been arrested…
Hey 5:04 & 7:16 If you read my post I was clearly talking to you. YOU are not welcome . Everyone else is. Just because you leave money in Florida does not give you any right to act like a CHAZER ..We love to have guest here and all are welcome, just “ACT” like a mentch.
“…..United Airlines are one of the worst airlines when it comes to customer service. The flight attendants are extremely rude to the passengers. One is made to feel that they are doing you the biggest favor by allowing you to fly with them. So I tend to side with the person who was removed from the plane.” (UNITED AIRLINES worst customer service said)
So, because you consider United’s customer service the worst, you side with the person removed from the airplane. And, this makes sense to you? Or, any reason- no matter how far out on the limb- will do, to maintain the delusional attitude of the denial that Frum Jews (if this passenger was in fact, a Frum Jew) can do any wrong.
Because people like you are Mishtataif to this Farkrumpter Shitah of blindly defending the Frum party- no matter what- you become part of the problem in the Chareidi world. You definitely need to learn something about being Modeh Al HaEmes!
April 17, 2008 5:04 PM
Hi I a Live In Miami FL
AKA
Iyr Hanidachas USA ,ALL YEAR
Where Machloikes, divisivness,selfishness,
lack of Derech Eretz and total absence of hacnassas orchim
is the rule of this modern sodom v’amoireh
Yes NYers are rude Yes some cause a tremendous chilul Hashem.
However it is what drives our Frum economy and without the NY traffic Miami FL locals could not support the Kosher stores and resteraunts.
So when we uptight locals complain and look at you like the enemy, just chuckle inside because it is highly likely that they have fled the north to Miami for un-flattering reasons or just enjoy being to themselves and not having to support Yiddishkiet.
Enjoy the sun and fun!
Great to have Y’all here!
a Kosherin Pesach
MIAMI BEACH LOCAL
we give tons of money to the miami jewish economy. we have the same right to be there as you.
if it is too hard to do hachnosas orchim then just renounce your jewishness.
when u give tzedakah do u say “well this beggar is rude so im not giving him”?
when u daven in a minyan do u say “this chazan stuters when he davens so i will not daven here anymore?”
you should accept ppl for what they are. only selfish ppl like you cant stand when the ny “rude” ppl come.
grow up and get a life.
obviously all the people who wrote comments do not frequently fly with united, if at all. united airlines are one of the worst airlines when it comes to customer service. the flight attendants are extremely rude to the passengers. one is made to feel that they are doing you the biggest favor by allowing you to fly with them. so i tend to side with the person who was removed from the plane.
a quick search of flyertalk.com will show you just how great unoted airlines customer service really is .
Nobody is above the law. In fact, if one is really religious (Jewish or not), they will respect others & abide by safety laws. This is a basic tenet of humanism. Shame on the Jews who ruin it, and then cry anti-semitism.
“Why not pray in the terminal?” (Anon 2:43 PM)
Because a much bigger debacle and Chillul HaShem can be caused in the confinement of an airplane, than in the open expanse of the terminal.
But, of course, these days, we don’t care much about ‘SheRuach HaBriyos Nocheh Heimenu.’ After all, that is only Bain Adam LaChaveiro, and certainly not as important as Indian Sheitels, microscopic biology in Brooklyn drinking water, banning concerts, and the removal of the Sheitel models’ faces. Pathetic, isn’t it?
so in essence what you are saying is that you guys in florida have no ahavas yisroel and are not mekayem hachnosas orchim…..
it sickens me when i walk into the pizza shop in miami and i hear the miami’ins grumbling under their breath about “rude ny’ers”…..
ppl have different ways of life and u shud respect ur guests and not be rude to them
April 17, 2008 5:04 PM
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Hey nyers.
I dont need to respect your ways if they are rude and yes they ARE rude.
You guys come here and leave this place filthy and you have no consideration for others.
Truth hurts!
Anon. 4:11PM ……. …… ..
…Is it because you can’t take a seat???!!! (according to your own P’sak!)
Anon. 2:03PM. Even though the “Praying Traveler” was wrong, in this instance. Some [hi-pot] venom can be detected in your post.
Possibly, anti-charedi, anti-chassidic, or just plain self conscious/self-hatred?! Additionally, we can proudly state; Mi K’Amcho Yisroel, as seen from the other posters downstream. No other nation/nationality in the world is so sensitized to introspection (self scrutiny). At the drop of a hat [or feather] we are ready to express an opinion about the person involved in a vontroversy. (Mostly critical)
He could have (and should have) just returned to his seat without saying anything and finished praying there. That would have been the correct halachic and derech eretz response
Anonymous said…
B”H he was flying to California and not to Florida. We had enough of those kind here over the winter. Be forwarned, if you come to Florida and you act like an animal and have no Kovod Habrios you are NOT WELCOME. This is not NEW YORK. After you leave we have to deal with your Chillul Hashem.Every one else is welcome.
Gut Yom Tov Klal Yisroel.
April 17, 2008 3:47 PM
____________________________________________________
so in essence what you are saying is that you guys in florida have no ahavas yisroel and are not mekayem hachnosas orchim…..
it sickens me when i walk into the pizza shop in miami and i hear the miami’ins grumbling under their breath about “rude ny’ers”…..
ppl have different ways of life and u shud respect ur guests and not be rude to them
We just LOVE to put down another Yid is it not? True he picked a bad moment to daven, but do you know the whole story? Do you know if the plane was really ready to take off? Was he REALLY the problem?
“Shelo Echad Belvad Amod Aleinu L’Chaloseinu” – The cause of “Shelo Echad” – we were not standing as one, “Belvad” – that reason alone would suffice that “Amod Aleinu L’Chaloseinu” Our enemies were strong enough to destroy us!
Yidden! Why do we snide and ridicule another Jew – even if he misjudged himself. Is this a true case Chillul Hashem? Remember, Halacha Yeduya Sh’Eisov Soneh L’Yaakov. Just know which side your bread (Matzoh) is buttered on.
Did he purposely want to disrupt the flight and make a commotion? Or was it that he found a minute to daven and it snowballed out of control? However the case,
DON’T JUDGE A FELLOW YID ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN FROM, OTHER THAN BLOG AWAY SHTUSIM AT A YID WHO DAVENED!
That “story” is a gemara in brochos.
I HAVE MANY SEFURIM WHICH CITE MAJOR POSKIM WHICH SAY YOU CAN’T DAVEN ON A PLANE, BICHLAL! WHY DOESNT KLAL YISRUEL WAKE UP TO THIS PASHUTE HALUCHA?!?!?!
and this is why people sue. you cant cure ignorance or stupidity
I’m glad all the knowitalls here find the halacha “afilu nachash…” does not apply anymore.
To Anon 4:03 Life is not a Pirchei story
To anon 4:03
the story that you heard about the Rav and the General, is just as you put it “a story”
the Halacha is not like that!
The Halacha is …. you shuld take a seat or dont travel
sit home lkie me…
I havn’t traveled in 20 years …
Lets not jump to conclusions. I remember a story that I heard many times growing up about the Roman Officer who rode up to a Rov while he was davening, the rov did not answer and the officer got very angry, this officer could have killed him yet the Rov did not answer!! He said to the officer when he finished that he was talkingto the king of kings and he couldnt interrupt. I am sure that this man did not realize that his actions wopuld cause such a big Chilul Hashem. Why are we alwya sso quick to put people who are Davening, learning, etc.. etc.. down so quickly?? Let us all be dan lekaf zechus. I am sure we all do things daily that if seeing another person do it we would react very strong against it but when we do it ourselves we say it is ok???? I dont agree with thsi man I would not have done the same thing but why do we have to accuse and get upset all the time at other people….????
B”H he was flying to California and not to Florida. We had enough of those kind here over the winter. Be forwarned, if you come to Florida and you act like an animal and have no Kovod Habrios you are NOT WELCOME. This is not NEW YORK. After you leave we have to deal with your Chillul Hashem.Every one else is welcome.
Gut Yom Tov Klal Yisroel.
i have no problem if he would like to daven in the back of the plane but what was the big rush that he couldnt wait until they take-off he couldve waited 20 more minutes and if was getting too late then he shouldve davened in the terminal boruch hashem they have a place to daaven in jfk…. so no excuse
He got what he deserved…..Believe me next time he’ll be behaving like every normal man does just before takeoff….He should have davend before boarding the plane or once on the plane daven in his seat sitting down !
Let’s see..stand for SShomnei Esrai…..Chilul Hashem….HMMMMM not a hard choice
Unfortunately our people are clueless
as to how to behave in public and especially on planes and airports. We block the isles if find an acquaintance two rows up, arrive late unto the full plane with hatboxes and sheitelboxes and large carry-ons and refuse to relinquish them when told that there is no more room etc etc.
I flew with a reowned chasheve Rav, when two of ours made a Chilul Hashem, and he said that he plans to write a little booklet in Hilchos Derech Eretz for travelers that the heimishe travel agents should distribute. I have not seen it yet
Why not pray in the terminal
Not that I think quoting R. Yaakov Kaminetsky would make any difference to this specific person, but just in case others that are reading might be swayed by his opinion, Rav Yaakov is quoted by his talmid R. Jacobs as being of the opinion that even at a highway rest stop one who feels that he will be able to be michaven better by sitting in his car as opposed to standing outside his car and incurring the curious stares of passerbys should by all means daven while sitting in his car.
Are you allowed to be mafsek shlo bemakom sakana?
theres nothing wrong with davening sitting in the seat on the plane. by acting against the rules you put yourself and the entirep lane in danger. why do people think its ok to break rules of sfety for their own righteousness? the guy is wrong.
i hope this guy gets fined big time. this is not the first time or last that this happens . these charedishe flyers think that es koopt zey to daven where and when they want even if it means not litening to the captain.
The flight attendents were correct. Their are Halachos about how one should Daven if one is travelining or unable to stand for soem other reason, and they are intended for circumstances like this. Trying to stand where it inconveniences others is being a “Tzadik oif yenems pleitzes”.