New York – Not long ago I sat with ten young women, aged 19 to 24, to ask them about their dating experiences. The consensus was that the men who take them out seem interested mostly in their looks before everything else. The girls who are super-thin get asked out first. Being of good character is important but of secondary concern. And you would think that the mothers of these men, being women themselves, would push their sons to dig deeper and see a woman’s beauty as being something other than just her body. But no, they are accomplices in this shallowness. The girls explained that when the mother of a prospective date called one of them to get a reference on a friend with whom their son was about to go out, the first questions usually pertained not to the girls’ character but to her shape and size.
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Perhaps most disheartening was hearing about the complete reversal in what once was the natural order of dating. It is no longer the men who pursue the women and ask them out. It is now the women who chase the men, making them appear desperate while the men get to appear dignified.
These conclusions may not surprise you. No doubt you are rolling your eyes even now and wondering why I even bothered to state the obvious. Until I disclose that the conversation was with ten very frum girls who were describing what the Chassidic dating scene has descended to.
We can no longer close our eyes to the serious dating crisis in the religious community wherein a man and woman’s most important decision may be based on values that are inimical to Judaism. King Solomon may have declared, ‘Beauty is misleading but a woman who fears G-d should be praised,’ but we clearly think that he was just kidding when he wrote it.
The purpose of a Torah education is the inner transformation of a human being away from the prevailing mores of the secular culture and toward the convictions of a G-d-centered life. And the only way to discern whether a Yeshiva education in general, and a Chassidic education in particular, is having any impact is whether its products make decisions that reflect the Torah values that are at the center of their education. But we now face a situation in which religious girls feel that putting more time into applying make-up and buying clothes than davening and learning will guarantee them a good shidduch. And that is a conclusion which can forever blight the integrity of Jewish orthodoxy.
Frum Jewish men, often spurred on by their imperial and see-no-imperfection mothers, are becoming increasingly shallow and vain. They may study Gemara and Chassidus for fifteen years but clearly the light of a G-dly life is not necessarily penetrating their souls or altering their world-views.
Every day I receive tens of emails from complete strangers in the religious community asking me if I can suggest a shidduch for them. But the increasing superficiality in the frum dating scene has me often feeling despair, like the story a year ago when I was going to introduce a young yeshiva scholar with a razor-sharp intellect to a brilliant frum intellectual woman who seemed perfect for him. The day before they were meant to go out he called me to tell me he was cancelling the date. He had seen her picture on FaceBook and decided he was not attracted to her. I was shocked. First, even by the most objective standards the girl is highly attractive. Second, the bochur did not even feel any shame in telling me that with the glance of a single picture he had dismissed the entire idea. The great intellectual who had written to me of how the most important thing to him was a girl who had scholarly Torah pursuits turned out to be an empty suit and yet another religious charlatan.
And where are the Yeshiva educators throughout this crisis? Can we really be proud of having raised a generation of future Rabbis who see skin and shape in a woman but seem oblivious to personality, mind, and spirit? Yes, I know physical attraction is extremely important in a relationship. But beauty dare never be defined in so corrupt and limiting a fashion as to preclude anything other than body parts. The Torah’s view of a woman’s beauty is glorious because it is holistic. It incorporates the softness of her voice (kol isha), the nurturing of her soul, and the wisdom of her uniquely feminine view of life. So how can a religious man whose years of education revolves around seeing the hidden within the obvious, the G-d who lurks beneath the veneer of nature, be so utterly blind to a woman’s soul? How can we in the Jewish community who love learning suddenly look at a woman and see all cover and no book?
About three years ago a young girl died in a Jerusalem seminary from anorexia. I penned an article that lamented the tragic consequences of poor body image on the part of even frum girls and how the frum community must educate boys and girls to have a much more holistic, and uniquely Jewish, view about beauty and how attraction is a composite between the body’s form and the soul’s light. The head of the seminary later got in touch through an intermediary and demanded an apology. I hade made a Chillul Hashem by writing the article, he contended.
No, I said. The only Chillul Hashem was a girl walking around stick-thin and nobody noticing because we have become so accustomed to a girl’s looks being her primary virtue, even in the Jewish religious world, that there was no other voice to tell her that her real radiance came from her inner beauty which was lost to the world when her luminous soul was tragically snuffed out.
We can and must do better. The Yarmulkes we wear, the tzitzis which swings from our sides, the beards that adorn our faces, are all statements of a belief in a higher truth and more lofty values, values whose highest manifestation lies in qualities possessed by the soulmate with whom we choose to share our lives.
Rabbi Shmuley Boteach is the international best-selling author of twenty books. www.shmuley.com
Greatly written.
Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren’t very pretty? (yes it says very pretty).
When you go to buy a sheitel or you go to buy a baby carriage, do you look to see it’s qualities, whether or not the sheitel will attract, repel, invite, send away, look short or long and other physical characteristics. The same is true when you buy a car and a desk. If you have two desks that both function as places to do paper and book work, you are going to then consider looks and price. People are not objects but similar rules apply. If you don’t know anything about this girl or that girl, to you they are both girls and guys too. Then you go to the next steps not just to the next single step, but to stepS. You start to think about looks and personality traits and money and intelligence. These thoughts all rush in together. You don’t act like a robot. First you think only of looks. Then you think of how nice. Next you think of money. No, that’s not how it works. Many thoughts enter and they aren’t on a magic list that is always followed. Your shiduchim also have no control over which attributes are considered first or fourth. They are all part of a package.
This is a terrible tragedy.The secular street has penetrated deep in to our world.My rosh yeshiva once commented after listening to the conflicting torah appreceation and super not modest look,that a young scholar was seeking,”it sounds like your looking for a shiksa who is machshiv torah”.At the time I thought it was a “good line”,I have since realized that this is exactly what many are looking for.
how about looking for girls and boys who haven’t ever heard of facebook!
if physical attraction is important,which it is, why don’t these kids meet at meetings, weddings,lectures etc. it worked in the good old days before the rabbis messed things up
I don’t typically comment on these types of articles but I must say (and the author said it very clearly)
Nobody says that beauty isn’t an important factor but it should be the first question!
Too many people focus on the external and get lost with the internal…..is it any wonder that the divorce rate is where it is? As Rabbi Reisman once said “we live in a disposable society” if it doesn’t cater to my needs get rid of it. People have to realize in marriage that it’s not “fun and games” and alot of work needs to be implemented in order for one to have to have a happy marriage. AND IT’S ALL WORTH IT!
HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!!
so, the frummeh are like the goyim. Good morning, America.
What kind of talmid chachom and ben torah peruses facebook!?!
If these boys are surfing the internet and visiting sites like facebook etc. there are much bigger problems to deal with than the fact that they want skinny wives – a better approach might be banning the internet for yeshiva bochrim (which I think would be common sense) – see how effective that will be to keep the influences out.
I kind of get the feeling that the author of this article likes to write outrageous articles with catchy headlines and not much substance or accuracy.
My comments will probably be viewed as heretical, but here goes anyhow. Rabbi Boteach attributes the over-emphasis on a girl’s size to “secular values.” It is possible it may be the opposite and a problem of the frum dating system. Outside of the frum world, girls size 10 or 12 get as many dates and opportunities for marriage as the size 2 and 4. Why? Because young men and women get to meet in more natural settings that aren’t focused on pairing people for marriange, such as college classes, parties, jobs, etc. where they get to know each other and see their personalities before deciding who to date. The complete separation of the sexes and the position that talking to a girl, seeing a collarbone, etc. will drive a young man to uncontrollable urges may help make women appear to be sex objects and make it harder for young men to feel comfortable with women and see beyond their physiques.
“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder…”
Would you rather have a gorgeous wife that treats you and the kids like yesterday’s trash? Middos should be considered as well. don’t get me wrong, we definately want to marry some one who is pretty, but don’t let that be the first and foremost factor that you take into consideration.
A problem that the younger generations have, is theat they are watching more and more ‘shtussim.’ Whether it’s in the home, on the internet, by a friend, grandparent, relative, or even(yes, it’s true ) on a return flight from eretz yisroel after a year or two of shteiging. What is being portrayed and projected in all the films nowadays, even in the children’s movies, good looking women that are scantily dressed! Let’s not even talk about the films that show other situations…
If this is what our children / young adults are subject to, what can you expect of them? To go out and get married to some one that is heavy set and less attractive, but she has good middos? I don’t think so!
Now imagine how a girl must feel. She is a girl with good middos, good looking features, but a little heavy, and she is being told that there are no boys available; yet all her friends are being swept up, one after the next! None available? Maybe they mean to say, no g-d fearing boys available who have true torah values!
I’m a single girl in shidduchim and the way people deal with it makes me sick!
Girls become obsessed with their looks and think that if they have one pimple, no one’s going to want to marry them.
It’s so true what he said: that nowadays the girls are running after the boys. Many boys have lists of girls while the girls are waiting by the phone for someone to redd a shidduch. Since the boy has a list of a lot of wonderful girls with great middos, how should he choose between one or the other? Well, it’s obvious- let’s see who’s prettier!….
In some ways this is worse than the secular or more modern way of dating. The frum boys won’t even agree to go out with a girl if she’s not pretty or skinny. If he would actually meet her and see her great personality- he might overlook her appearance. (as long as she looks good, just not drop dead-gorgeous) They don’t even give them a chance!
I am not saying this from personal bitterness. I haven’t had anyone tell me that I’m not pretty or skinny enough. However, I know all too well what goes on out there and it’s horrible! And I pray that I don’t marry a guy who’ll just like me because of my looks. I hope he’ll think I’m pretty, but that should not be his priority at all.
The fact is a woman will marry an ugly man if he has money. Let’s hear the other side of the coin please
I rarely find myself agreeing with this guy nowadays, but he is spot-on with this one. Its about time someone said it. I believe we can be even more blunt about it. Girls are also just as shallow, but both are intertwined.
Boys from the right pedigree, or who come from what I’ve heard is called “real money” are held up on a pedestal looking down over a sea of girls. These girls, in turn, feel the need to pretty themselves up on the outside because these boys will never even give them the time of day, let alone want to learn anything about them.
This has become a disgusting practice and it is COMPLETELY accepted in the community.
We had this discussion a while back in reference to the children of sex offenders in our community. People felt we should NOT turn offenders in because their children will never be wanted for shidduchim.
What ever happened to judging a boy or girl for who they are? Midos? Ahavas Torah?
Men approach dating as if they were at a brothel, and the girls are more than happy to market themselves as such.
There are stereotypes going way back about the Jewish mother who sees her son as perfect, and sees her daughter’s goal in life to “marry a doctor” or “marry a lawyer”. What’s wrong with marrying a guy who has a successful plumbing business? One of my grandfathers was a butcher and the other worked on the docks for a fruit distributor. Neither one had much money, They were both far more “modern” than most of us here. But they had character. They had ahavas Yisroel. Neither one had much money to speak of. They never got to own a home. But if they saw a man in need, they dropped everything to help him. My papa knew who in the neighborhood didn’t have enough money. In his butcher shop in the Bronx, my grandmother worked the cash register and knew she was to give them the “special price” on everything… quietly and modestly. That’s who they were. They had no great pedigree to speak of. Their parents were poor as dirt and even homeless at one point. They still managed to learn and to be oseik b’mitzvah.
I was lucky enough to find someone who reminds of them. We don’t have much money. We’ve been through good and bad. We both come from somewhat “less than frum” homes and went to modern yeshivos (which made both of us pretty undesirable, I’m sure). But my wife never had to flaunt anything to get noticed. She was the one organizing food drives for the homeless. She was the one delivering food to the convalescent home. She was the first one to volunteer to raise money when a local yeshiva didn’t have the money to cover some scholarships. She was the one *I* noticed.
My take on all this is that any bochur who judges the possibility of a shidduch on looks is a fool with a grotesque sense of entitlement (either for his money or pedigree, etc). At the same time, any woman who spends time primping up like a high-priced call girl just to marry into that “rich” or “prominent” family, is also a fool.
Girls… spend as much time learning and doing acts of chesed and you will attract the RIGHT guy.
Boys… I hate to burst your bubble, but you’re not quite as good a catch as your mother has always told you that you are. Spend the time to learn about someone. Don’t even ask for a picture. Talk to her on the phone a few times. Ask others about her (but not her appearance). Then choose to meet her. Any other way of choosing just makes you a clown.
One day (not too far in the future) both of you will be older, fatter, wrinkled and gray… and nobody will remember, or care about how good you looked in your expensive suits… or hats… or Gucci bags… Find that one who will help you create a story that your grandchildren will proudly write about one day.
King Solomon has a point. This is the way boys/men are wired. Instead of knocking this nature and insisting boys be more spirit oriented accept it and work with it. Otherwise you’ll have sholom bayis issues of boys who dislike their wives’ looks. Additionally the famous gemora in kiddushin says that it is assur for a man to be m’kadesh a lady untill he sees her. Do you think Chazal didn’t know what they were talking about???
i love Shmuley’s articles, they are always very well written and thought provoking. However there are two (or more) sides to the coin. How many girls – or their mothers – wont go out with a guy because he is slightly chubby?! How many girls are only interested in a guys money??? many many girls will not go out with a guy if he is from a poor family.
Shmuley you have got to stop blaming the men, and start focusing on all aspects of this major problem.
Good article
Dovid Hamelech took Basheva because he knew she will be the mother of Shlome.
Today at 08:44 AM
Anonymous Says: Reply to #1 Show Quote
KING SOLOMON? Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren’t very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
You stupid idiot. Are you comparing the holy avos to the narcissistic youth of today?
….. How about you being stupid … the torah is nitzchias and the torah wouldnt say it if it doesnt apply today… GOTCHA!!!
Great article but incomplete:
– In the Hareidi crowd the first question is about money, not looks. That’s the second question.
– No mention of the [resulting] increasing divorce rate between drop-dead-gorgeous couples.
[Disclosure: I met the first person I dated. Never discussed money matters before/after getting married. Happily married for 23 years.]
Let’s meet halfway. A girl (or boy for that matter) doesn’t need to be anorexic but doesn’t need to be overweight either. Is it so much to ask a young man or woman to eat responsibly? Girls are also into looks, probably as much as boys. They refuse short boys, chubby boys, red haired boys, and boys whose beards are already very long or bushy.
I have also seen plenty of people who were not attractive or skinny get married so obviously not everyone views looks as important.
Mothers want what will make their children happy. If a mother of a boy wants a girl who will take care of herself, what is wrong with that? No one is advocating plastic surgery but proper nutrition, hair styling and a bit of make-up never hurt any girl.
This article might have a valid point but…. first of all you speak about facebook as if that were normal, accepting the fact that a regular frum buchor would go look at facebook for a picture dwarfs the issue of wanting a beautifull girl. Secondly you speak about beauty and thin as if it were one. It is very important for a girl (and boy) to be wieght concious. It is completely legitemate not to want a fat or even slightly over wieght girl. Most frum bochurim arent looking for size 0’s they just want a decent weight.
if there is no torah there is nothing . we are infested with TV, Facebook, My Space and what not . What do you expect prom a Bocher thats on Facebook
As a mother of two wonderful, kind-hearted, educated, and pretty girls – they are sitting while others get engaged. They are not a size 2 or 4 – but I am sure when the “bas kol” went up to the shamayim – it did not say “ploni ben ploni” is for her, but only if she is a size 2!! We all have our zivugim – and we have to do our hishtadlus and IY”H when it is the right time, the right zivug will come.
great article. I suggest all men read the chapter 5 of the book “garden of peace” by rav shalom arush for further enlightment.
to the writer of this article: i would like to know how your dating experience was if you are married and if you are not well thab how about you be the first to marry a girl that is not your size and is unattractive. how is a marriage supposed to last if every morning you wake up and look the the person lying next to you and you have absolutely zero attraction to. if you suggest we do all this than the man will be walking down the street looking at all the other women and thinkong about them and that can destroy the marriage.
“looks are not everyting, but without them its nothing”
It’s the seminaries! they put these dumb ideologies into girls and put pressure on them to marry a certain kind of guy, get married two days after seminary, and if not they will get old gray and dye alone – AS FOR BOYS ASKING ABOUT SHAPE AND SIZE FIRST – DUH! men are going to be men and Torah knows that more the anyone else. That is why we have all these rules and regulations. as for the shiduch crises STOP BEING SO DARN CHOOSY!!!
All true. However, you cannot fight this with logical arguments. Attraction is emotional and cannot be won over by a logical argument. It comes from the outside world, true. but it is here, and you will not get it to leave with logic. As someone who recently got married after many years of being single, I can tell you, this is not the answer. You cannot win someone over. He will have to come to this realization by himself. The arguments are counter-productive, they generally make someone in this position just write off the person arguing with them.
comment #1 - “i assume you wrote that comment for attention” – you wouldnt say a comment like that about reb moshe zatzl – do you have any clue who the avos were actually the “sefas emes ” says that one of the reasons yakov avinu cried after he kissed rochel imeinu was because future genrations may interpet it incorrectly
as afras dovid hamelech see the first few pesukim in melachim aleph “vehamelech loh yedaah”
rav pam zatzl said many time s that the mitzva where the torah streses beuty is an “ESROG” WITH THE WORD HADAR rav pam further said that when the shulchan aruch enumerates the maalos of an esrog ;the “GIDUL”-physical shape is not the firsat maaloh what is “NOKI” – clean of blemishes (after murkav) rav pam said yofi is a maaloh but not the first maalos zechuso yagen aleinu
lastly ; good nights can only follow GOOD DAYS –
those in shiduchim you cant force attraction but you can be mispallel for “CHEIN”
i am a single male who finds articles such as this to be out tune with reality. Many women seem to be obsessed with how tall a man is, how thin he is, if he has a full head of hair, and how much he earns. For those women who ask isn’t it good enough if a woman has good midos, ask yourself if a guy is good enough if he has good midos(but is deficient in the other things I just mentioned). It seems to me that the single women are much more fussy than the men, and that it is more often that the woman has no interest in a man she went on a date with, rather than the reverse.I have basically given up on dating, as I have not had any success at it for the longest time. I am only 5’7″ and many women won’t even give me a chance due to my height. Some of these women are only around 5′. Why would a 5′ woman consider a 5’7″ man to be too short? Why must a woman wear 4″ heels and insist on dating only men over 5’10”? Why can’t she wear flat shoes and date men 5’6″ and over instead?
This is not a new phenomenon, or a secular thing. This is the way G-D created (men and women). Now it may be something that people should work on, and strive for (to see past the outer appearence), but it’s deffinately not a new thing, and I don’t know why anyone is suprised at this.
Looks like this epidemic can also be credited to the filth of the internet… A YESHIVAH BUCHER spending bein hasdurim on facebook I would say his entire loimdus is just inferier. & he’s looking for an equal match….
What is the point of blaming & giving more reasons how messed up our society is and write more articles on this?!
The real need is for real solutions.
Get wit it.
We can no longer assume people are altruistic and only living spiritual idealistic lives, we are human afterall. Lets call a spade a spade – Boys and girls look for looks and girls and boys look for money. What it means is that we need to educate people to look a little below the surface and into the future – what will be when the money runs out and the looks fade – are you still interested or will you get a divorce. Not everyone has money (very few today left) and not everyone has the looks – yourself included! We need to instill into our children from an early age – even preschool, that life is not just about ourself and our immediate gratification; life is to improve on our middos which should lessen our gashmiusdika look on the world. Hopefully after 18 years of education, people will realize there is a book beyond the cover. There is no quick fix to anything, but a little more maturity into getting married will go far.
I am a mom of 2 eligible children, one of each sex, with the others already married. I was a size 6 when I got married at 20. I havent been a size 6 in at least 20 years. I am being open minded about suitable shidduchim for my available son. I will look at a girl that is ‘rubenesque’, because these things do change. But, I still do want someone that will appeal to my son…
I heard a nice Moshel:
One had to travel from place A to B and had two cars in front of him, One beautiful Bentley with all the luxuries One would love to have, the other was a Bashed up Toyota Corrola 98 with broken air conditioning and heating. The choice would have been obvious, but the problem was the Bentley was traveling from A to D (not B).
With shidduchim its the same, we should look for a person with the same goals and values, The Bentley won’t help you if its not getting you where you want to go!
{They may study Gemara and Chassidus for fifteen years but clearly the light of a G-dly life is not necessarily penetrating their souls or altering their world-views}
This is what happens when we stop learning FROM the Torah. We just use it to promote ourselves and use it only when it’s convenient.
{How can we in the Jewish community who love learning suddenly look at a woman and see all cover and no book?}
All these issues with women are due to our so called educators. All they teach us all day about women is “tznius, tznius & tznius” and how she is supposed to look and how men are NOT supposed to look at her. Do they EVER teach you how men should (LOOK) at women, why Hashem created (such a “unholy” wasteful human being, good for nothing except for having baby’s) women , what qualities, midos and character a yiddishe woman should possess? How a man & woman are both partners in creating a beautiful Yiddishe home?
Having said what i said, after 120 G-d will hold you responsible. It’s your duty in this world to educate yourself. We have the biggest collection of seforim in history translated in all necessary languages. Go out and educate yourself, cause ultimately you’re the one responsible for your self.
I like how guys like # 52 criticize buchrim for going on the the internet while these phony’s are on the internet them self’s no wonder we have such problem with our children.
Wow so much to write about I don’t know where to start. First of all about the guy looking on facebook let’s all do the mitzvah of being dan lekaf zechus and assume someone else showed him the picture(his sister,shadchan etc. Use ur own imagination remember its a mitzvah!). Second of all for all of those upset that there seem to be people both guys and girls who are too into looks, I say then be thankful ur not marrying them because they don’t sound like people u want to marry anyway. Parents unfortunately will always be choosy if they have the option and I sometimes think that because there are so many good-great girls out there and not as many good-great guys(I think girls are generally better than girls when it comes to things like midos,hashkafa I.e.the important things in life.. feel free to differ btw)that allows some mothers to be more picky if they really do have a fine son while others may just hype up their son by being very selective(yes I have seen cases where I was told that guy is top stuff and I knew him personally and was shocked and then people were surprised by who he married while I was not..). Looks are certainly important as many have previously mentioned but I’m sure everyone will agree it should not be the key factor unless they have dated and just couldn’t see each other living together. Also maybe the guys have other options and may decide that if all else is equal why not go with the prettier girl. As for money I’m sure there are girls who will marry ugly guys and sometimes vice versa where maybe the money is more important to that person than their partners looks. We all want to look good for our spouses and hope they will do the same. As one mother commented she has emunah that the right boy is out there for her girls(I’m sure he is and they will be good ones since u seem to have the right mindframe and I’m sure ur davening..)And I think we all have to daven to make the right decisions whether as parents or singles when we say yes or no and just try to give things a chance to develope and not be so closeminded and critical and choosy regarding things that don’t really matter both in the long run and short run. Btw just as a matter of fact I think guys are more into the physical attributes of a prospective partner while the girls are more into the emotional and mental attributes but that does not mean that there are no guys who want a good warm caring smart funny etc. girleven if she’s not pretty and there are girls who do care more about looks than other things when it comes to looking for a husband. DONT GENERALIZE EVER! Of course we all do but let’s try not to too much and remeber there are all types and we are not in control Hashem is! we have to do our hishtadlus and work on ourselves and try to educate our children to know what’s important in life but if we really do that we can only daven and remember that whatever Hashem does is for the best. I wish everyone hatzlacha and mazal and nachas (sorry for the long post..I could have gone on but I figured this was enough for now)
i never agree with this guy but for once i agree. however the lack of tznius in society is a big reason men want a very good looking wife and act so superficially. even for a married man it is hard to have shmeiras einayam even amongst frum women. anyone who goes to a chassunah even a “very yeshivishe chassunah” will see that the young women today dont dress nearly as tzniusly as the previous generation. Why should i be stuck with the ugly fat wife when everyone else has a beautiful put together wife?
I try hard to give back and set up the boys and girls that I know. However, after speaking with mothers of many boys, unfortunately unsually the ones known as the really “good” and “desirable” boys (the ones with the lists) or even more often the most “yeshivish,” I get really turned off. I agree that attraction is VITAL to a relationship, but how in the world can you judge someone else’s potential attraction? I can tell you that a girl is pretty, gorgeous, attractive… but that does not mean your son will think so. I can think a girl is plain, and your son will think she is as beautiful as a model. A lot more than just physicality goes into attraction. We all know of couples where the mother of the boy if she was honest with herself would say that I really didn’t think that was the kind of looks he went for. Maybe they weren’t, but the full package made her seem like a princess. I guess I am most frustrated by these innane questions that the mother needs to know her son will be attracted to the girl before they even go out. How can she possibly know that or even for that matter, how can he know that before he ever meets or speaks to the lovely young lady?
Lets be fair and honest, a rich pretty girl is on a pedastal picking and choosing as much as the boys
Why do people have to be so negative and argumentive? whether its criticizing an article or a comment that was written, why can’t we just be more civil and disagree respectively. I see people who curse out others or make fun of others on this site and I pray that this is not an example of real life. Why can’t I see more ahavas yisroel and less sinas chinam when having a discussion in an open forum such as this one? Try to be gentler more understanding even if u strongly disagree with someone else’s comment or point of view. There are almost alsways two sides to every issue or story. Don’t generalize and lump together all people whether its in regards to regular memebers of Klal Yisroel or Rabbanim. Let’s try to give people the benefit of the doubt and not assume people knowingly or purposely did wrong. Let’s share our ideas,views and opinions with others in a way that will not violate any of the ideals or mitzvos of the Torah. Let’s try to be more forgiving and understanding of our fellow Jew. Let’s agree to disagree on subjects and views and opinions and ideas. Let’s try to work together and encourage each other(I find that when a person comments and writes about personal problems/troubles etc. So few people comment back to try to encourage or help that person..). I b”h will try to do these things and hope many if not all the people reading this will try too.
Halevai someone should chase my son.
While the focus on appearance is a non-Jewish value that penetrated our community. We have had vulnerability to such outside influences, and many efforts to insulate our lives, families, and children have not been completely successful.
There is a greater issue here, and the article seems to mention it, though perhaps giving it less than the appropriate concern. The issues we discuss when involved in shidduchim, whether for ourselves or our children are frankly weird. The jokes about the plastic tablecloths on Shabbos are not even funny. I have observed the topics that are bantered about in proposals for shidduchim that omit any reference to one’s middos and personality, and are sickly preoccupied with levush. Having fielded questions about such trivia, I found the lack of attention to the real features offensive. Anyone can purchase any type of bekeshe, shtreimel, hat, socks, and trimmings. A girl should not be looking to marry a uniform. It is equally ridiculous in the other direction. But since we have confused our priorities, placing appearance as high as we do should not be a big surprise.
This is just another stupid article by a “Rabbi” who thinks he’s going to fix all the worlds problems. His assumption is that a man wants a women of beauty because of the goyishe influences, when in fact that’s not the case. In halacha it clearly states the need for a man to be attracted to a women, and that’s why he must see her once at least for a second.
If personality is more important than looks, what can be accomplished with a look of one second? Nothing. In fact – human nature is that if one is physically attracted to his wife, he will then find love in her, and the personality issues are themselves resolved, and he will treat her with respect.
“Rabbi” Shmuelly has no right to make away what is human nature and clear halacha.
He has once again declared himself king, and made a lousy argument.
As for the girls, there is no excuse for a single girl to be 40 lbs overweight. When a bochur sees a girl, he is not looking at facial features, he is judging her body. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As for weight, there is no way overweight is attractive. The same way a girl in shiduchim won’t go out without makeup and hair she needs to pay attention to her weight.
Preferring women that are pretty is not a goyish thing. It is a human thing. You have to be stupid to blame this phenomenon on “secular dating values Invading the frum community”. It’s more about hormones invading the minds of young men, and God in his wisdom made the human body like that for a reason. It’s because prettyer, healthier looking women are more likely to be fertile.
Someone just reminded of a story a friend once told. His rebbe was talking about the concept of gluttony – in all aspects of life. At one point (and I don’t know the question that prompted it) he told an overweight boy in the class “you better do some exercising or nobody good will ever want you for a shidduch and you’ll end up married to some fat girl named Shprintza” (which I take offense to because my favorite Aunt growing up was named Shprintza). To me, that sums this all up. I remember when I heard the story the first time I didn’t believe it, until others in the shiur were telling the same story and the rebbe had to make a public apology to everyone for it.
As a woman, I take offense to women being compared to a car as some of the knuckle-dragging idiots have done in previous posts.
There is a problem in that there is a mechitzah around every facet of life in the frum world. Single men do not get to interact with single women, except for the purpose of getting married, and so neither group gets to see the other as they really are. Given this segregation, all people can use as initial criteria for choosing a partner are looks and money.
One other point that people seem to be reluctant to talk about is the immaturity of both the men and the women, or as many others have said in their posts, the “boys” and the “girls”. If you see yourself or a potential partner as a child, then how can you be ready for marriage? Just because you’ve attained X number of years doesn’t mean that you’re emotionally mature enough to make that kind of commitment. I know too many people who married young and are either miserable or divorced.
We can sit and discuss the problems of the world, but we’re not going to change it. Boys will be attracted to pretty girls and it is important to marry someone who you are attracted to.
What troubles me is that the mothers are obsessed with how the girls look. THAT is a major problem.
Also, I think that boys should agree to go out with a girl even if she’s not so pretty because sometimes a boy can be extremely attracted to a not-so-attracted girl. It can take them by surprise. I’ve seen it happen. But if he dates her and he’s not attracted to her, then he has every right to say no.