Brooklyn, NY – It looks like a supermarket, but it really is a preschool — even if the city doesn’t see it that way.
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Yeshiva Ketanah of Torah Vodaath’s preschool center has been operating on Quentin Road between East 31st and 32nd Streets since 2008 — despite the fact that the city has twice rejected its application to open.
“The certificate of occupancy doesn’t allow operation of a school,” said Department of Buildings spokeswoman Carly Sullivan. “There was an application filed in January 2009 to convert the first floor to a school. That application was disapproved. It was last reviewed in September 2009 and it still remains disapproved.”
But school leaders say they haven’t done anything wrong.
“The certificate of occupancy can sometimes take years until you get it,” said Rabbi Isaac Gottdiener, the yeshiva’s executive director. “So what do you do? You wait? There are many places and schools that operate as long as the safety requirements are met.”
The building is zoned for a store, and it still looks like one. The blue and red awning and large signage for the building’s previous tenant, Kolbo Kosher Marketplace, still hangs — while a vinyl sign proclaiming the school’s existence can’t come close to covering it up.
The city says a school would be permitted at the site with the proper certificate of occupancy, but it can’t give one out until the school clears ip the 26 objections the has to the school’s application — including a failure to enclose the cellar stairs or provide details about the layout of the building’s interior, Sullivan said.
Gottdiener said that the yeshiva has addressed the objections, but the school couldn’t submit a new certificate of occupancy until it sorted out other paperwork, namely assuring that emergency exits are in place in both sections of the building.
Residents say the school should get it’s act together.
“If they don’t have a certificate of occupancy for a school, then I think somebody should call 311 or the Department of Buildings to have an inspector come down and verify this,” said Community Board 18 Chair Saul Needle.
But Gottdiener contends that his supermarket yeshiva, with opaque windows, is a boon to the community.
“A school like ours provides a valuable service to the community,” he said. “It’s a beautiful place.”
Yeshiva Ketanah of Torah Vodaath has two other locations — 425 and 452 East Ninth Street — offering preschool to high school grades.
What is daas torah on this? Should we the laymen come out with a kol koreh banning illeagal activity to benifit a shul or a cheder that daas torah won’t ban?
it should still be done legally and properly. lets make a kiddush hashem
Sorry to dissapoint but I, a frum New Yorker, agree with the City.
NYC does not have a racist agenda, they require a CO. If it takes time then don’t start the school till then. I also was not permitted to drive till I got a license even though it took time.
It actually sounds like not all issues have been adressed. safety counts.
Funny how it’s in th news today. I passed it yesterday and could not make out if it’s a grocery or yeshiva. The last I would think of is That’s it’s for pre school looked very unappetizing especially with the bar a few doors down.
“Gottdiener said that the yeshiva has addressed the objections, but the school couldn’t submit a new certificate of occupancy until it sorted out other paperwork, namely assuring that emergency exits are in place in both sections of the building. “
This isn’t some technical bureauocratic mumbo jumbo, but actual safety issues. If you had a kid in the school, would you feel safe, knowing there aren’t proper emergency exits if c”v there was a fire?
Is it going to take someone r”l to be killed before the “heimishe” world wakes up and realizes that building codes are there for a reason, and not just for fun sake?
Forget the chilul hashem that this causes, and forget the “mishum aivah” issues, these are real life and death issues.
“The certificate of occupancy can sometimes take years until you get it,” said Rabbi Isaac Gottdiener, the yeshiva’s executive director. “So what do you do? You wait? There are many places and schools that operate as long as the safety requirements are met.” …
The city says a school would be permitted at the site with the proper certificate of occupancy, but it can’t give one out until the school clears ip the 26 objections the has to the school’s application — including a failure to enclose the cellar stairs or provide details about the layout of the building’s interior, Sullivan said.
What do you do you don’t break the law and you fix the porblems..oh never mind he’s a rabbi. he can do what ever he wants. Lets put this ‘rabbi’ in cherim
Dina d’Malchusa Dina – applies to Mosdos too. The requirement for a C of O is in the area of building safety, some thing that a Mosad with small children absolutely must comform to. If Rav Pam zt”l were alive – what would he say ??
To quote ““The certificate of occupancy can sometimes take years until you get it,” said Rabbi Isaac Gottdiener, the yeshiva’s executive director. “So what do you do? You wait? There are many places and schools that operate as long as the safety requirements are met.”” YES YOU WAIT! I am a Kensington girl born & raised & grew up with YTV but you can’t just decide what will & won’t be adhered to. Also you cant justify bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior. Just because others do it still makes it wrong.
Any parent that sends their children to a school that is not deemed safe in anyway is negligent!!!
I see no one from Torah Vadaath went to the Agudah’s seminar on business ethics and dina d’malchsa dina. What would Rav Pam, zt”l, say?
“The certificate of occupancy can sometimes take years until you get it,” said Rabbi Isaac Gottdiener, the yeshiva’s executive director. “So what do you do? You wait?”
A get can take years. Conversion can take years. Earning simcha can take years before you can call yourself a Rabbi. So what do you do? You wait?
At least the City enforces it’s zoning laws unlike our esteemed Supervisor in the Town of Ramapo.
If anyone has ever tried to get a C of O from the Department of Buildings, you know that it can take years. There is so much bureaucratic red tape involved, it takes years to finally get any answer from the city. This is especially true in regards to changing a buildings Certificate of Occupancy. The building in question, has a certificate of occupancy, it just needs to be updated.
Before everyone’s mouths go off faster then a AK-47 at an Iraqi wedding, Know the facts.
#1 Community Board 18 has made it known that Jews are not welcome in the district. Were not talking about a place like Williamsburg that is “in your face Jewish” Were talking about Marine Park where Jews are Quiet and respectful of one another.
#2 I have walked past that building many times, its a beautiful building that seems, very “school like”
#3 Your Nabe.com is a division of the Kings Courier. I encourage anyone who wants to visit the website and see the filth they spread. 4 out of 10 articles on their website is about Jews, and all the articles about Jews are derogatory and down right Anti-semetic. You be the Judge. Yeshivah Violating the law, or a over zealous newspaper begging for an article.
I’ve operated several businesses in NYC and while the rules are complex, we followed the rules. This guy is another case of an arrogant yid who thinks the good work he is doing warrants circumventing the law. They should shut this facility down and keep it closed until he gets the required paperwork filed and approved. Every day there is another story about yidden trying to sneak around or flout the law. Enough already.
And what happens until you get the C of O, home school? Fledgling schools have held classes in home kitchens and dining rooms for centuries.
Did you ever consider that it’s a street with businesses and zoned for business. Putting a school there will take up parking spots and having hundreds of kids walking in and out will adversely affect the local businesses that require easy accessibility for their customers. I for one would not want school buses and double parked cars outside my store, making it difficult for my customers to enter and exit and bring merchandise to their cars.Aren’t we supposed to have consideration for others and set an example for others?
If the city oks it then fine. Until then, abide by the law!
All these kashrus laws are very complex and getting a proper hashgacha is time consuming and expensive. Our food is delicious and the kehilla will enjoy it. So for now we are opening our restaurant without hashgacha. B’teavon
I think it is safe to assume that if there were a real safety issue the City or the State would immediately shut it down. Schools and Day Care centers after all require licensing and annual inspection by the Department of Health among others. The fact that they have not shut it down indicates that while there may be issues requiring remedy and rectification to be in full compliance with every nuance of building code, they are still in suitable enough shape to operate safely. Nobody, no business,no school, or organization, is perfect and no one should be held to a standard of perfection. If we required everything in our society to be perfect, nothing would ever get done or be accomplished. Anyone who has ever run a business or especially someone who has started a business knows that you can not get things right 100% of the time. Even Neurosurgeons can not get things right 100% of the time. The standard should be what it is “Reasonable” and “Sensible”. I have heard that the interior space is a beautifully and appropiately outfitted space for a preschool.
I see why the rabbonim hate the internet – before, all of these violation were kept secret –
The city’s rules are complex but still necessary for life safety. I opersonally obtained certificate of occupancies for multiple schools and the city will go out of their way to accomaodate any educational facility if you show willingness and that you are working on the issues.
Unfortunately I have seen a lot of times where safety has been jeapordized as well and the city is not “whol’ d a hell crazy”
Torah Vodaath is the one of the last and possibly the last Yeshiva that is a community institution and not a privately held business. The sole purpose of the Yeshiva is to educate children and they actually accept children even if their parents can not pay full tuition, and they give meaningful discounts to the indigent, unlike other yeshivas and Girls Schools in our community. The tzibbur should see this article as a motivation to donate money to this worthy institution. The sign outside is no good? how about stepping to the plate and donating some money to the Yeshiva so they can afford a good sign. How about donating lots of money to this school so many more yiddishe kinder can get scholorships and attend yeshiva without bankrupting their parents.Here you know your money is really going to Tzadaka and Torah and not to enrich a private school owner or “Rosh Hayeshiva”.
dear fellow commentators ,what happened to you ????
you assume guilt,danger,cherem,… based on an unknown neighborhood rag, at the very worst ” assume that the bldng needs a touch or two”
RAV PAM!! ask yourself if rav pam had read this article.. about ANY mosad hatorah ,what would go thru his mind? nothing at all like the comments
A HEILIGE YESHIVA with a 90 yr track record , an administrator rabbi G. with a sterling reputation, baalei batim of superb caliber .. & SO MANY SHAMEFULLY don’t even bother to “maybe there’s a second side to the story” ( YTV will be fine ,it shows what kind of effect the current events are having on our mindset )
LASTLY FACTUALLY , there are fire exits … no 100’s of kids…. & when the bldng dept arrives they will be pleasantly surprised
( p.s. it reminds me of once accompanying rav pam z”tl to Rikers island & 2 inmates had complained &asked; the rosh yeshiva to speak to the chief warden ..rav pam listened to their story,VERIFIED the real current facts with the deputy , & made his decision ( the rosh’s level of kavod habrios for a criminal was “ain leshaer” WE SHOULD AT LEAST GIVE THAT LEVEL OF ZECHUS TO klal yisroels “GEMS”
Maybe its time for David Greenfield to stretch his wings and help out the Jewish Community and assit in getting the certificate of occupancy
The only reason this issue made press was because it is a Yeshiva, YTV has done so much for all of us, we should all stand up for our school and let our voices be heard in the City Council.
Not being in sufficient compliance with with all the requirements neccesary in order update a C of O does not make something illegal. The rush to judgment, and the besmirching of hardworking people who are Moser Nefesh for the community is reprehensible. Everybody take a step back a minute and take a breath. Do you for one minute really think that if someone is not in compliance with every single rule and regulation promulgated by every single goverment beauracracy that you are a lawbreaker. Lets take one example. A few years ago the NYC health department required cold food to be stored below 45 degrees. They then decided to be more machmir and lower it to 41 degrees. Would you call some who stores cold food today at say 44 degrees, a lawbreaker? Do you think that is a fair and reasonable characterization? So lets not blow things out of proportion. Or how about if you let your car inspection or registration lapse. True you would be subject to a fine, but it does not rise to the level of criminality and should in no way be compared to those who willfully flout and break the law.
1- although the sign still indicates a supermarket the yeshiva thought it wiser to spend its money to redo the interior, which is modern clean and run in the most professional manner.
2- Both the reporter the CB and all the commentators should do a bit of research
into why a CO is required, and the governing body over preschool facility safety is the Dept of Health NOT DOB
YTV is usually a quiet middle of the road school, in the manner R. Pam was. His exemplary Middot and Truthfulness was well known and documented. If alive today, this would NEVER happen. How dare this ‘rabbi’ say.. ““The certificate of occupancy can sometimes take years until you get it,” said Rabbi Isaac Gottdiener…What an idiot and a complete mockery of the institution and the great Gadol who ran it.
It is an embarrassment for this school in particular and real jews everywhere when an institution (the real name for this joke of a school) which is called .. Yeshiva TORAH Vodaas’.. This joke of a ‘rabbi’ does not represent ‘torah’ at least not R. Pam’s ZT’L version of it.
Why is that ‘jews’ think there is so much anti – semitism, and ‘they don’t know where it comes from’, when they constantly break and disobey Laws – mind you Laws which are non discriminatory and are for everyone’s protection? When the Broken Elevator story happened, (‘jews’ and) people where outraged that the city did not do more or have more safety procedures in place. Is it all fine and good to disobey Safety Laws which are for your own protection, until there is a tragedy (Elevators, Bus emergencies)?
Get an exectuvie director in the yeshiva who follows the rules and can bring the yeshiva into the black HA!
If the yeshiva knew that what they are doing is kosher, they would have removed the supermarket sign a long time ago. They are hididng behind the sign.
for all those trying to spread motzi shem ra please go somewhere else. Torah Vodaath is a mosad with a 91 year old PERFECT record. This yeshiva is not out to make money unlike some others, they dont charge full tuition if parents can’t afford, they need money, they have done so much for the klal, and how dear people try spreading bad rumors about such a choshuve yeshiva????? If the city hasn’t shut them down, obviously it is in great shape for a school, just can have a couple things done to help make it better. But to say it is unsafe is UNTRUE. There are not 200 students there as a previous poster said. there are under 50 students in that branch. I was there and it is perfectly safe and beautiful for a school. and EVERY parent who sends to this branch was there and KNOWS it is safe, so whoever said that it’s unsafe is just trying to make trouble for a wonderful mosad and the wonderful man who runs the yeshiva. IT IS PERFECTLY SAFE!!
Shkoyach shmiel! you are absolutely right. Rabbi Gottdiener is an ehrliche yid, and obviously you guys dont know him.at least be dan lekaf zechus for fellow yidden instead of automatically assume the worst!
This is one of those situations where the big Govt. gets in the way of progress. The program is safe and well-run. But if a CofO is not issued, many fines can be slapped onto the program. So the Govt. drags its feet in the hopes it is defied, and it can collect on fines and fees.
Arbitrary rules that govern building code have gone out of control. Small business and non for profits are held in a Govt. vice.
My son was in the preschool program there last year. It is a great program. It is safe, educational and has great morahs. My son loved his time there. I also believe there were under 50 kids in the program. I have seen it many times. It is spacious, state of the art. and immaculate. I am surprised by this story, but I DON’T regret sending my son there.
Good Luck YTV!
wow. i haven’t read all these comments. i would like to add my two cents, however.
1) there are two classes of kids in there. at most, 50 kids. i suspect they are fewer than that. so no hundreds of kids. dismissal is a pain, people double park, and the bus does too. this is on a two-way street with no traffic light at the corners, so pedestrians with strollers have an especially hard time crossing those corners at dismissal.
2) speaking as someone who had her kid in that particular location of that particular school, i’m surprised to hear about the c/o or lack thereof. one reason i sent my kid there was that i was certain it was fully licensed and legal. no parent asks, “say, do you have a current certificate of occupancy for that particular building?” at the kindergarten interview. don’t be so hard on the parents, folks. there’s only so much research you can do. i figured they saved money on the sign. i’d rather see a cheap sign and the teachers paid in full, on time.
as for the legality of the whole thing, i don’t know the story. were my kid still there i would definitely call the school and ask about this now that i’ve read the story.