New York – Opinion: When A Child or Student Thinks He’s Gay

    92

    New York – Rabbi Aryeh HaKohen Katz’s recent editorial addressing Rabbi Shmuley Boteach’s WSJ article on contextualizing homosexuality sparked a number of responses. Some asked Rabbi Katz what he recommended to do if a child or student of his was undergoing such a feeling.

    Join our WhatsApp group

    Subscribe to our Daily Roundup Email


    The following is Rabbi Katz’s response:

    The Problem:

    It is a difficult “what if.” It is a question that most people do not wish to consider because it is somewhat taboo in our circles. But it does happen, nonetheless, and with growing frequency.

    And while it is the recent gubernatorial race that has brought the issue more into the public limelight, it is an issue that the Torah community has had to grapple with for a number of decades already.

    What if your student or child comes home with the belief that he is attracted to members of his own gender? What is the proper Torah response? What advice would you give this student or child? Also, are there things that we can do beforehand to properly inoculate our youth?

    While here we deal with the question of what to do – let us not make the error that Rabbi Shmuley Boteach made in “contextualizing” and consequently minimizing the severity of the prohibition equating it to “eating non-kosher foods.” The RaDak (Shoftim 20:1) describes it as “the great sin encompassing the essence of gnus.” Yet at the same time, like a pernicious, illegal drug, we have to be able to effectively deal with the problem. The dilemma is real, affecting a growing number of our youth, and will not go away if we just stick our head in the sand.

    Below are five key steps in addressing the problem.

    Relaying the Message

    The first thing that we should all realize is that there are plenty of people out there who are doing something that they should absolutely not be doing – they are sexualizing a relationship that shouldn’t happen. And they are doing so by exercising their own desire-filled choice.

    Bill Clinton did it with Monica Lewinsky. Pedophiles do it with young children. Adulterers do it with married women. And those people who act on their attraction to members of their own gender are doing it too. What do they all have in common? They are all sexualizing an incorrect relationship which is a violation of the Torah’s commandment of Lo sasuru acharei levavchem veacharei ainaichem.

    The fact is that Hashem created us all with Taavos – desires. Most people choose not to pursue those desires when dealing with, say, married women that they come in contact with daily, or with single women. Just as the majority of the world can say to themselves, “Let’s not go there” – would-be pedophiles and those with an attraction to their own gender can say that to themselves as well. In other words, they can exercise their free choice not to sexualize a relationship.

    It is a message that, on account of our timidity, we are not really telling our children or even discussing in shul. The Torah felt, otherwise, however. The prominence of the prohibition against adultery in the Ten Commandments or in the Leining on Yom Kippur indicates to us that this is a message that should be spread: “Don’t sexualize an inappropriate relationship.”

    And it is not just adultery which is included in the Ten Commandments. Rabbeinu Bachya (Shmos 20) explains that adultery in numerical sequence is the seventh commandment because it encompasses all seven of the prohibitions of Arayos – including homosexuality. The message is quite clear – Don’t sexualize ANY inappropriate relationship.

    One of the most profound differences between man and beast is the fact that man was endowed with freedom of choice. When a teacher, or anyone for that matter, is entrusted with the care or education of young children that person must choose to never sexualize that relationship. If the message is not told to them and reinforced – then the would-be offender can begin to fall down a very slippery slope of rationalizations;

    “No, they really would like this extra attention..”

    “It is really not so bad – the whole world is doing this..”

    “There is nothing wrong with love..”

    “The Rabbis who forbid this are really just a bunch of hateful bigots..”

    Part of what endows us with our “tzelem elokim” or our “Chailek Eloka mimaal” is our ability to exercise our free choice and our intellect. When we fail to heed this message, we make ourselves no better than the beasts in the field.

    The Accompanying Second Message

    This message, however, should be accompanied with another message too.

    The other message should be an affirmation of the student’s or child’s strengths and qualities as a human being. Often a strong factor in the tendency toward a homosexual disposition is a low self-perception of oneself and an alienation from others.

    This can and should be counterbalanced by a recognition of one’s strengths, qualities and virtues. Self esteem can also be built up through the involvement in Chessed and other acts of kindness toward others.

    It is important to ensure that the affirmation be genuine and real. People are extraordinarily perceptive and if the affirmation is false or phony – then you have just undermined the person’s self-esteem. Honesty and genuineness are key.

    Sports

    Adolescents and teen agers have an excess amount of energy that, if not properly channeled or focused, can lead them into trouble. Involvement in sports is a very healthy release of energy and should be encouraged. American Litvisha Roshei Yeshiva have recognized this for some time already. Unfortunately, the Eretz Yisroel Roshei Yeshiva and the Chassidisha Yeshivos have not yet recognized this fundamental point.

    Reducing Logistical Opportunities

    Another very important thing that must be done is to reduce the opportunities available for the person to stumble. Access to internet must be carefully supervised. If one has stumbled with a certain individual – both parties should be made to realize that they should not be alone together in a future situation. The laws of Yichud exist for a reason and even though they may not have initially applied to people of the same gender – the Achronim write that at times it is proper to adopt them (see Bach at the end of Hilchos Yichud). It is important to make sure that the accompanying message of ensuring the child or student perceive his intrinsic self-worth be followed here too. It can be quite a delicate matter.

    The Final Element

    Find a therapist, coach or advisor that your son can connect with to address the other issues going on his life. Make sure that the therapist is properly trained and follows the Torah Hashkafa on homosexuality. A few decades ago the politically correct world and the pro gay lobby hijacked the regnant views in the scientific world by a popular election and refused to recognize that, just like any other psychiatric or psychological illness – it can be treated.
    This is not to say that there are no biological factors that contribute to the homosexual frame of mind. Each person is different and the elements of nature and nurture are found almost in everyone. Work with the therapist to develop a healthy understanding of the underlying factors that have contributed to this frame of mind.

    It is not a problem with easy, pat solutions. All change is difficult, but many, many have succeeded and now lead normal, happy lives. The common denominator is that the success stories view a temporary dalliance into homosexuality as an immature phase where there was a temporary, arrested psycho-social development in the their own outlook.

    Not all situations, of course, can be rectified and it is important to know that. But many can. Like a lifetime battle with alcohol – sometimes a situation can only be managed well. But the merit for one who succeeds in doing so is very great.

    Aryeh HaKohen Katz is a Rabbi and teacher at a Yeshivah in Brooklyn. He can be reached at [email protected]


    Listen to the VINnews podcast on:

    iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Stitcher | Podbean | Amazon

    Follow VINnews for Breaking News Updates


    Connect with VINnews

    Join our WhatsApp group


    92 Comments
    Most Voted
    Newest Oldest
    Inline Feedbacks
    View all comments
    ABrisker
    ABrisker
    13 years ago

    YOU HOMOPHOBIC!!! What’s wrong with being gay and sexualizing a relationship!!! Hahaha just joking great article !! Lots and lots of emes! Keep up the good work!

    KACH613
    KACH613
    13 years ago

    I see on Arutz7 all the time a ad from a grupe called Jonah that help people in this situation, and reverse their feelings.

    shosh
    shosh
    13 years ago

    A very wise man indeed. And, our ability to choose, and make choices is why we are separate from other animals.

    13 years ago

    this article is laughable on too many levels to enumerate here……

    13 years ago

    Rabbi Katz’s response is totally ludicrous and imbecile! If a child truly has homosexual feelings what will the school do is the question? Is it the child’s fault if that is how he was created thru whatever deviation we torah jews consider it?
    The parents should embrace their child, give him love and work with a therapist and organizations like Jonah.
    It is a tragedy , that behooves us to help these peolple to help them be good yiddin despite they may have these inclinations.
    what should yeshivas do if a child is born that way?
    who says it is not an act of Hashem that the person was created like that. It is not an addiction ! We should be mekarev them and work with them not make believe that it isn’t existing.

    Unbelievable
    Unbelievable
    13 years ago

    This is one of the most irresponsible articles I have ever seen written. This individual knows nothing about the mind of someone who is homosexual, or for that matter a pedophile. Comparing a relationship with a married woman to pedophilia or homosexuality, or for that matter pedophilia TO homosexuality is completely ignorant on so many levels, that I cannot begin to describe it.
    Imagine someone tells you that you can never have a normal relationship. A person who is homosexual has no taavas nashim. Period. You are not just telling him that he can’t sexualize a relationship, you are telling him he is doomed to loneliness. Of course we can’t condone mishkav zachor, but undertand the conversation you need to have. Sports? Internet? Self Esteem?
    Pedophilia is a mental disorder (some argue the same for homosexuality). You cannot compare the drive to abuse a child sexually to normal sexual urges. Unless, of course you have no knowledge of the boundaries of either.
    But the most important thing is that the idea of therapy is last on the list!!!!!!
    My friend a person whould be melamed themselves to say eini yodaya. Someone should have had this conversation with YOU when you were a bochur.

    DavidMoshe
    Active Member
    DavidMoshe
    13 years ago

    Homosexuality is not an illness that can be “treated.” There have always been homosexuals, and always will be– the only variance is the extent to which society persecutes them. It’s easy for R’ Katz (who– probably– isn’t gay) to simply say that gay people should just avoid being in relationships, but what he ignores is that he’s driving some gay person into an impossible relationship with a person of the opposite sex, and making two people miserable instead of one.
    Given the fact that R’ Katz’ view is prevalent in Orthodoxy (and R’ Slifkin’s is borderline heretical), if one of my sons were (God forbid) to be gay, I’d advise him to find some other outlet for his Judaism besides an Orthodoxy that will always view him as a wicked person (while indulging tax cheats, scofflaws, child molesters and swindlers who dress and act frum).

    Moshe_in_Baltimore
    Moshe_in_Baltimore
    13 years ago

    Yasher Ko’ach Rabbi Katz, for sharing your clarity of thought and expression with the Klal . . .
    May your efforts spread wide and far, helping to soothe, guide, and heal.

    Member
    13 years ago

    Gosh, I remember hearing of my first “gay” classmate when I was in 8th grade. And at that time, I never “sexualized” a relationship with ANYONE. I must say that children are confused often and must be given a chance to explore the ideas and ways of Human relations. If you kid says he is “gay” at age 13 or later, just enjoy your day. Hes not about to run out and engage in toeiva relations. Maybe you can tell your son that Hashem created each male with a female counterpart and that he may or may not meet her (or she , him ) in this lifetime but that they will be married in the world to come. Perhaps that might give them perspective. If a 14 year old is “sexualizing” relationships I would be remarkably surprised.

    13 years ago

    #7 thank you for your on target comments.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    Katz truly demonstrates an ignorance of human psychology and physiology that can c’v lead to total alienation of the child from his/her family and yiddeshkeit and even more tragic outcomes. The absolute response in all cases is unconditional love and acceptance coupled with offers to help the child work through whatever identify issues he/she may have but at the end, they are still your child and a member of klal yisroel whatever derech they may choose.

    charliehall
    charliehall
    13 years ago

    The rabbi is spreading misinformation when he says, “It can be treated.” There is no treatment that has been shown to be efficacious.

    Elya2
    Elya2
    13 years ago

    Not sure why some people are attacking Rabbi Katz. His points are that the message shouldnt be watered down, that sports help, not to leave him opportunity to stumble and to get help.. Did I miss something?

    13 years ago

    well done, but there are still ppl who find themselves there regardless. if they read this article, theyre not gonna come out with anything that will help them.

    basmelech
    basmelech
    13 years ago

    Obviously if the Torah gave us a prohibition about immorality, then the urges CAN be conquered. The Torah gave us a blue print to live by as it says VoChai Bohem. Even if something is very difficult to do or over come it can be done or the Torah wouldn’t have asked it of us. Therfore those who give in to their homosexual urges are sinners and they can and should work on themselves to overcome this terrible yetzer Horah.

    Elya2
    Elya2
    13 years ago

    Dear 16,
    You really misread Rabbi Katz because he says to do that.. Twice.

    balabuste
    balabuste
    13 years ago

    job well done. Its all in the mind and its easier to give in to desires than self control.

    13 years ago

    lAs torah Jews we must condemn homosexuality as a life preference. But as bnei
    rachmonim , we must be mekarev these unfortunate souls who want to be torah observing jews but were ” born” with this sexual preference.
    It is like a prisoner who was oiver on Genayva and is in jail, does that mean he is not entitled to “kosher food”? Here too . we must condemn this way but realize that most gay people have no choice but want to be frum yiddin in all other respects. I read an article of a rebbe giving a shiur with married children and suffered until discovering at50 that he was totally gay. He cotinues today to be a frum yid , married but never being nichshal . Being gay and not nichshal to his natural taivas does not make the gay yid any less than those who cheat on their wives.

    shtill
    shtill
    13 years ago

    While I will not address the content of Rabbi Katz’s article as a whole, there is one point worth mentioning. R’ Katz’s dismissal of Rabbi Boteach’s “contextualizing” homosexuality as erroneous based on a Radak is misleading. On every issue, be it social, cultural, economical etc., there will always be many opinions to be found in traditional Jewish sources. Unless a given position is in direct contradiction to the Torah, it is important for Torah leaders to take into account the current cultural atmosphere and respond appropriately. In this case R’ Boteach felt that “contextualizing” would be the best answer not to alienate the people who are so conflicted and torn. Please think before you respond.

    shmielglassman
    shmielglassman
    13 years ago

    A FEW POINTS:
    1.have him seen by a clinical expert who can differentiate;
    between gay & HOCD- in the first, the person enjoys the thought (but the yiras shomayim ..bothers him) -in the latter the thought is intrusive meaning the person hates the thought but keeps thinking about it (a huge diff.-& very often the case)
    2. many frum ppl who struggle are not totally homo rather “BI” but the homo attraction is dominant (think of it as a see saw ) that can be worked on
    3.many times the fact that their first experiences were with “boys” makes them lean in that direction
    4.of course a healthy father son relationship is an important piece.
    5. a bochur with a “CRUSH” on another bochur is usually more obsessive in nature & is not gay
    6.this question has been dealt w/ many of times & is not taboo. takes time to find the right help.
    7. JONAH does good work ofcourse not always successful & yes there are plenty that will negate their “shitas” not because they have a better answer
    8.some of the eitzas sports… are not bad,no need to bash rabbi k & assume no love …
    if after all is said & done if a person must struggle with this ” zol der aibishter helfen brachmei shomayim merubim

    13 years ago

    All heterosexual Bochurim learn to control themselves, why should gays be any different?

    machmir4life
    machmir4life
    13 years ago

    Stop searching for all the koolahs in life. Live machmir, as no one has enough leeway to make their own rules. If you’re gay, you are a Toevoh!

    Aryeh
    Aryeh
    13 years ago

    Homosexuality is a disease caused by an abundance of GnRH. This disease is contagious through inhalation absorption. Why is nobody aware of these peer-reviewed scientific facts?

    Kanaim
    Kanaim
    13 years ago

    Nu, so a gay man (or woman by the way, which is also forbidden) doesn’t get to have a sexual relationship or even “marry” his/her lover. So what? Who says this is a mandatory thing to do? Who says we have to make every possible effort to allow for someone’s pleasure and mental paradise? Some of us have to suffer with things our entire lives. There is no requirement to make a deaf person hear, a blind person see, or a homosexual person have love or sex. Whatever defect you are born with, and yes it is a defect, albeit proscribed by Hashem, you deal with it within the parameters of the law. If the law said it is forbidden to create hearing aids, then it’s forbidden. Tough cookies.
    Perhaps all the Orthodox men who remain single their entire lives are ot suffering from lack of a good shidduch, but are, in fact, gay. Nu, good for them. Don’t ask, don’t tell. They can eat from my table anytime. But they can NOT bring their “partners” with them. That will never happen. Maybe it’s not an illness, maybe it can’t be “cured”. So, they live alone and don’t have sex. Or, better yet, they force themselves to fulfill the mitzvah of p’ru o’revu, get married, have kids, and love the kids.

    kollelfaker
    kollelfaker
    13 years ago

    charlie until the mid 70’s homo sexuality was considered a mental disorder by the APA (american pysh. ass) and was treated as a disability and yes we had mixed results in the 70’s this was gradually changed to accomadate those members that were now coming out of the closet there was great resistence to the change but it happened as for using psych therapy as a treatment there are anlysist that insist it works but when i read a lecture from an un educated rebbe it is laughable better he should show love and tolerance to all gods children regardless of the size of their yamuka (spelt wrong for effect)
    why do we have so many children turned off its because our schools today are enlitest institutions that cater to only what they proceed to want

    kollelfaker
    kollelfaker
    13 years ago

    oh gosh i agree with charlie must rethink my position

    13 years ago

    haw could a caraidy Child or Student Think He’s Gay if he never experienced a girl? let him get older and relise that there is somthing more then man….!

    shosh
    shosh
    13 years ago

    The culture itself is misogynist and how many latent spouses are there, disguising their feelings and destroying their families with their self directed anger.

    ShatzMatz
    ShatzMatz
    13 years ago

    Hogwash Rabbi Katz! You seem to be quite intellegent and knowledgable of the facts. Why don’t you just come out and say it. “Orthodox Juadism has no answers for the homosexual.” Unless a homosexual is willing to live a life of lonliness, misery and frustration, and unless he is willing to bestow this same fate on an innocent spouse, he is best advised to seek elsewhere. Gays feel like their faith has abandoned them, and rightfully so. I myself find it very hard to blame a person in such a situation who decides to abandon their faith. Unless frum judaism figures out a way to carve out a place for these people, I see no other solution for them.

    The hidden secret is that many teens who go off the derech now because of this reason. I find it comical everytime there is a symposium addressing the teen problem, but everyone avoids talking about one of the biggest factors.

    grandpajoe
    grandpajoe
    13 years ago

    There was an article by Rabbi Dr. abraham J. Twerski – Mussar and the 12 steps – on [email protected] – perhaps we hve to do a 12 step program before we comments on the personal issues of people.

    cantoresq
    cantoresq
    13 years ago

    The fact is that the sexual urge is no different than hunger for food. It is a basic need; one that people will satisfy in their own way. If heterosexual relationships do not satisfy an individual s/he will turn to homosexuality or any other sexual outlet that satisfies that individual. A sexual urge can be suppressed for only so long before causing severe damage to one’s psyche.

    Granted there are probably many in the gay community who are best described as bi-sexual (i.e. they can perform sexually and can meaningfully enjoy both homosexual and heterosexual encounters) who choose the homosexual route. Perhaps those people, if they really want to re-orient themselves a certain way can be redirected toward emotionally and physically rewarding heterosexual relationships. But what about those who simply cannot function sexually in a heterosexual setting; those who have no sexual attraction for those of the opposite gender, and are attracted only to those of the same gender? While it is possible to say that there is no room for those people in the Jewish world (and I accept that “no” is often only correct answer), I wonder if “Ones Rachmanah patrei” is the preferred approach.

    Election2014
    Election2014
    13 years ago

    aish in israel has a lot of guys who come in as gay and have methods of helping them turn back to the norm

    a-simple-jew
    a-simple-jew
    13 years ago

    This sick behavior is becoming more and more acceptable in our sick society. The more we allow ourselves exposure to the anti-Torah culture that surrounds us, particularly through the electronic media (the internet), the greater the chance that we and our children will be adversely affected. I’m not suggesting that such exposure is the only cause. And I’m not suggesting that we can totally cut ourselves off. That’s not possible or practical. But we must be on guard to whatever extent possible, taking every recommended precaution and safeguard.

    scmaness
    scmaness
    13 years ago

    l didn’t read all the views,but#7,36,52,and 57 is right. the lubavitshter rebbe says these feeling are in the gemora,10, however, it’s call learning how to be a g-d fearing jew,who said it was easy! r katz l applaud you for saying it the way it is,besides chassidus will help us pull up to the level that want this world to be.may we see the imm geula now. make this world holy, the rebbe says,the rebbe is here,just reach out though the rebbe’s holy letters

    Raphael_Kaufman
    Raphael_Kaufman
    13 years ago

    How does a 13 year old kid know that he’s “gay”? It’s not unusual for a young adolescent in the throws of puberty to get mixed sexual signals. Many develope crushes on older members of the same sex. The problem I see is that, in today’s culture, people are too quick to validate what may be a false alarm. If a 13 year old boy who has an attraction to an older boy is confirmed as gay, it may just be a self fulfilling prophesy.

    Pereles
    Pereles
    13 years ago

    People are thinking too much. Hashem commanded us NOT to be like the Canaanites who performed the forbidden sexual acts. That means, yes, people committed all kinds of sexual acts, however, for yidden it is assur. Simple enough?

    PashutehYid
    PashutehYid
    13 years ago

    Lmayseh, what is the difference between Rabbi Katz and Rabbi Boteach. Nothing.

    enlightened-yid
    enlightened-yid
    13 years ago

    Should it surprise anyone that another under-qualified “Rabbi educator” whom parents trust to program their kids for life is filled with uneducated and imbecilic opinions on a very serious matter? Some day Rabbi Katz will have blood on his hands when a frum gay teen will be pushed to the point of suicide because of ignorance in his community. There are hundreds of gay men from frum communities who already abandoned their faith because of people like Katz. How come VIN did not publish Shmuley Boteach’s opinion on homosexuals in the frum world, but publishes every crackpot’s opinions?

    Elya2
    Elya2
    13 years ago

    I find it interesting that #73 labels Rabbi Katz an unknowledgeable idiot and extolls Shmuley while a previous comment said that they are exactly the same. I think VIN should have a debate between Katz and Boteach

    13 years ago

    78 FactsofLife Says:Reply to #68
    “The vast majority of Goyim consume tons of pornography, engage in licentious activities during their schooling years and continue these activities after they are married. These things are forbidden to us so we have to be much more careful.”

    You are so severely brain-washed that it is unlikely you can tell reality from fantasy.

    Contrary to your beliefs (and heaven only knows who shoved such narishkeit into your bran), goyim do NOT consume “tons” of pornography and engage in licentious activities during their schooling years, and continune those avtivities after they are married. They wouldn’t have time to study, work or date if they did. Whoever told you this made a fool of you.

    And even if it were true, which it is not, they don’t seem to be the worse for wear based on your speculation. They don’t run will in the streets sexually attacking others, molesting children or committing domestic violence at any significantly higher percentage than Jews do.

    NBL613
    NBL613
    13 years ago

    I was better able to stomach this article by Rabbi Katz than his response to Rabbi Boteach.