Crown Heights, NY – Famed Posek Rabbi Menashe Klein: Messianic Group Within Chabad Are Apikorsim

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    Crown Heights, NY – Rabbi Menashe Klein, a U.S. halachic authority known for his strict rulings, has denounced the messianic group within Chabad in a new book.

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    In his 17th volume of Mishne Halachos, Klein names people who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, is still alive, as “Apikoras.”

    The spiritual leader of the Ungar community head of the Bais Shearim Yeshiva in Brooklyn, Klein knew the Rebbe before he assumed leadership of the Lubavitch movement.

    “This sect of crazies, which falsify the Torah and our sages’ words, to say the Moshiach is dead but is really alive… these are things against our holy Torah.”

    His sharp words are an answer to a messianic booklet, which is not identified by name.

    Klein continues to write: “Whoever can, should as soon as possible, silence and stop the proclamations after or before the prayers ‘Yechi… King Moshiach’ which is a disgrace to the Rebbe OBM.”

    He ended his attack with a plea: “My intentions are holy – not to destroy the big building the Rebbe OBM built for over 50 years.. may he be an advocate for us and for all the Jewish people, especially his students and Chasidim.”


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    281 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    100% correct every word!!
    Pure apikorsim!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Well Said- kol hakavod

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    What else is new? This is something everyone has know for the last 15 years! If only those in Chabad (minority or majority) would break with the messianic element, painful as it may be, it would prevent the rest of the Orthodox world (both Charedi and MO) from writing off the entire Chabad movement as messianic.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    I agree. There is no halachic support for this opinion and they are damaging the rep. of “normal Lubavitchers” May the true Moshiach come soon!!!!!!!!!!!!

    glatekup
    glatekup
    15 years ago

    Its about time that one of the american gedolim take a stand against this group within the chabad movement.

    No Joke
    No Joke
    15 years ago

    The Jews for J have long used the insistence of the Lubavitch Mesianics that either the Rebbe OBM did not really die or will be resurrected to be the Mashiach as a support of their contentions about J. They have stated openly words to the effect – what are the Jews always trying to dismiss their belief in J, his resurrection etc. when the ultra-Orthodox sect of Lubavitch are not saying much different.
    The Rebbe OBM did incredible work and was mashpiah on the Jewish world. But he passed on, and we hope he will be a meilitz yosher for klal Yisrael like other gedolim and kedoshim from the past.
    Even Rabbi Akiva thought that Bar Kochba was the mashiach until he died and he accepted Bar Kochba’s death. How much more so, our generation, who are so much smaller in all aspects than Rabbi Akiva must accept that people pass on, no matter how great they may be. It is a pity that the Lubavitch messianics carry on so, because they tarnish the Rebbe’s image and works

    liepa
    liepa
    15 years ago

    Not just ‘apikorsim’ but true ‘MISHEGOIM’.

    Just Thinking
    Just Thinking
    15 years ago

    It is time people start to appreciate the great Gadol we were merited to have in this generation. Too bad petty politics Have kept Rav Menashe Klein away from the stage for too long. He is a genious in Psak and fears no one but God.

    FOL
    FOL
    15 years ago

    Sadly, people tend to judge an entire movement by some of the more vocal lunatics within, neglecting the recognition of the Rebbe’s gadlus in being instrumental in bringing thousands back to Yiddishkeit (B”H Rabbi Klein does recognize him). We are not Lubovitchers but my husband davens in a Lubovitch shteibel because of it’s warmth and acceptance of all Jews. The rov of this shul refers to the Rebbe as the Rebbe ZT”L. Remember, the parts do not define the whole. Give Lubovitch a break already.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    one of Rebbes in my yeshiva said if not apikorsim, but they are definitely Shotim & bunch of fools & ignorants who know nothing. very unfortunate…that lubavitchers with all their power can not quiet these people.

    Proud Chabad Chossid
    Proud Chabad Chossid
    15 years ago

    I agree with the Rav 100% as do most Lubavitch Chassidim today.

    The moshiachistim are a disgrace to the Rebbe and should not be tolerated at all.

    The true Chabad Chassidim are the hard working Shluchim who are Moser Nefesh and give up on both their Gashmiyus and Ruchniyus in order to reach out and help another Jew. The vast majority of Shluchim do not say Yechi and would not in any way affiliate themselves with those that do.

    It is trully a shame that such a small but vocal group have being so destructive and tarnished the good name of Lubavitch.

    Wishing the Shluchim much success in continuing their holy work and that they succeed in their ultimate goal in bringing Moshiach (whoever he may be) now.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    he didn’t say if you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach he said if you believe that the Rebbe is Alive Rabbi Klien is a Meshichist

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Anyone who visited 770 since the Rebbe passed away will agree. They are real apikorsim. Standing there and saying they see the Rebbe is coming down, he just started to daven etc. Let’s see the Rebbe should go Hagba. Those who call them Meshiguem, this is a 2009 political correct word for apikorsem.

    Lakewood Masmid
    Lakewood Masmid
    15 years ago

    Rabbi Klein is one of the strongest Geonim and Poskim nowadays. He is also a very big Tzadik,he has lots of siyata dishmaya. Lubavitch at a whole are just a wonderfull asset to klal yisroel. Its a shame this small and vocal minority tarnishes the holy name of the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt”l. The Ungvarer Rebbe always stood up for what’s correct in halacha.

    House of Doors
    House of Doors
    15 years ago

    Is this a halacha p’sak or is it a hashkafah-based opinion?

    gershon
    gershon
    15 years ago

    the reason why jc was not moshiach has nothing to do with the fact that he died R”l whoever thinks so is an apikores.

    geuss what the concept of moshiach sounds R”L xristan,

    its high time that people start learning about the subject with earnst not just bubeh facts.

    my great uncle was the rosh yeshiva in chachmei lublin and he said that people have no clue about the subject and it wasnt thorogh ly dealt with as to keep away from the yushkeh beliefs, but i think that since today people yiden have access to the internet with all types of info about the goyishe beliefs we ought to get are facts streight and not say bogus dinim which have no place in torah,

    as for the l”r zt”l maybe he was or not but if they want to believe so, zol zein, i just think that they are not doing any good pr for themselvs.

    gershon from Montreal

    Mendy
    Mendy
    15 years ago

    All you bashers. you are wrong, but its not the time for this, its sfira anyhow. maybe you should all learn inyonei geulah and moshiach.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    I suspect there are groups within Satmer and Belz who also believe the same thing about their rebbe but have the political sense not to say so publicly….if these misguided lubabvitch feel better thinking the rebbe will return and it energizes them to do even more mitzvot and give more tzadakah to hasten his return, who is Rav Klein to burst their bubble.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    This Psak does not negate the belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach, it only states that the Rebbe is no longer alive!
    As we know Moshiach CAN come from the dead, as is stated many times in Gemoro.

    WolfishMusings
    WolfishMusings
    15 years ago

    “In his 17th volume of Mishne Halachos, Klein names people who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, is still alive, as “Apikoras.” “

    I’m confused. Why would believing that R. Schneerson (or any other dead person) is alive make one an apikorus. At worst, it just makes him wrong.

    I know of people who believe that Elvis is still alive. They may be wrong, but I highly doubt they’re apikorsim.

    The Wolf

    To 12
    To 12
    15 years ago

    At least feel ashamed. and please, dont call yourself chabad.

    sholom ber
    sholom ber
    15 years ago

    as a lubavitcher, lets put things into order
    1. dovid melech yisroel chai vekayom
    2. yacov lo meas
    3. rav says “rabinue hakodeash”
    in the messichistim there are a few levels of crazy ones!
    Apikorsim? please whats next? if you go to touro college you are a goy?
    you wear a black hat you go straight to gan eden???
    what do you do when a nonlubavitcher knocks on your door for money??? u scream yechi at him? please everyone drink some tea or coffee and let live!

    RESPECT
    RESPECT
    15 years ago

    Some people who are alive are dead (by not continuing torah and mitstvos), and some that are dead are more alive than those living.

    “Yakov lo mais” Rashe: …ma zaro bachaim af hu bachaim.

    Anyone know “Dovid Melech Yisroel Chai Vicayom?” Is Dovid alive? A: Yes, as long as we are.

    Horav Minashe Klien is arguing with a Ramban, if he means that Moshiach can’t come from the dead. Also the talmud points out that the many amorim held that thier rebbe was moshiach.

    Its OK to be jelous of someone regarding toraha and mitzvos if it makes you do more. Ze v’ze Devreay Elokim Chaim. Lets show more Ahavas Yisroel to stay “alive” and bring moshiach.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    In B’Reishis (Parshas VaYechi) 49:33, Rashi states: “Yaakov Avinu lo meis.” The Gemara claims that Yaakov Avinu did not die. Rashi says, “Chai l’olam” (He lives forever). Then he explains: “The Gemara asks a question: ‘But didn’t we see that he was eulogized? Didn’t we see that he was buried? Didn’t we see that he was embalmed?’ The Gemara answers, ‘Mikra hi – I just know what it says in the Torah.’” And he brings the verse from the Torah that teaches us that Yaakov Avinu lo meis. Rashi explains that it only appeared to them that he passed away. This is the principle found in reference to Yaakov; in reference to Moshe – “Moshe lo meis.” We find this in reference to Rabbeinu HaKodesh, where the Gemara says that every Friday night he would come back home to his family. The Gilyon HaShas on the Gemara itself says that he would come home and make Kiddush for his family, which means he had the power to be motzi them (to cause them to fulfill their obligation). Whenever the Rebbe would speak about the Previous Rebbe, he strongly said that this principle applies not only to Yaakov, but to every Nasi HaDor. In fact, Nasi is the roshei teivos [acronym for] “netzutzo shel Yaakov Avinu” (a spark of Yaakov Avinu). Whenever he spoke about the Frierdike (Previous) Rebbe, the Rebbe never said nishmaso Eden (his neshama is in Gan Eden) or zecher tzaddik livracha (the memory of a tzaddik is for a bracha), because he said [the Rebbe Rayatz] is here – he’s alive.

    ZR
    ZR
    15 years ago

    As a Lubavitcher, I say, most of Chabad are absolutely disgusted with the Meshichistim. They have done allot of damage to the name Lubavitch and the Rebbe. There are currently court cases costing in the millions trying to eject these people from 770.

    But at the same time I must say that Chabad is criticized for many other things which have no basis in halacha (for eg. the bor al gabei bor mikvah issue — which I must point out in the long debate a few days back, NOT ONE person was able to explain in halachic terms why bor al gabei bor might be problematic. NOT ONE person was able to bring a posek on the level and generation of R’ Moshe Feinstein (who praised the chabad design) that says bor al gabei bor is posul. Ironically the Chazon Ish didn’t like the Hashoko mikvah design – which most side by side mikvos use. So in fact the standard side by side Hashoko mikvah is more problematic than the bor al gabei bor.) Yet, in many circles, this myth perpetuates. For some reason, the very fact Chabad is associated with a certain type of Mikvah is enough to shun it. And even to label it posul.

    This kneejerk resistance toward Chabad has caused many in Chabad to simply stop trying to accommodate the Litvish concerns.

    Most of the M’ camp excesses are a result of this attitude that the “’Litvish velts has always opposed Chabad in whatever we do; be it Teffilin, be it shabbos candles for girls, be it kiruv, be it lag b’omer parades. This is just the latest issue. Nothing we do is good enough for them. So it’s no point trying.”

    Unfortunately, most in Chabad (and especially the M’s) believe the Litvish velt has lost their credibility to criticize chabad.

    This is a situation of the boy who cried wolf, in that now when the M’s would do good to look at their actions, it gets shrugged off as “typical misnagdim – always against us for the last 200 years.

    But let’s not forget that these people are a minority and must, Bezras Hashem, be stopped.

    the emperor has no clothes
    the emperor has no clothes
    15 years ago

    Finally, a leader. Rabbi Belsky also siad in Mishpacha and got vilified.

    misnagid
    misnagid
    15 years ago

    to number 27: WELL SAID! we all need to start being m’kabel haemes mimi she’omro, no matter if you daven ashkenaz, sefard or ari.

    Mendy
    Mendy
    15 years ago

    מכתבו של הגאון האדיר הרב פנחס הירשפרונג

    י”ג אייר, כ”ח למטמוני”ם תשנ”ז לפ”ק

    הנני להגיד דעתי ברורה בזה (בלי להאריך בכל השקו”ט, שכבר שמעתי הענין לפרטיו, ואכ”מ להאריך):

    כל הדו”ד אודות השירה וההדפסה והענין ד”יחי אדמו”ר מלך המשיח לע”ו” וכל הכרוך בזה – אין בזה שום צל של שאלה בהלכה, ויש לזה מקורות בש”ס מפורש, בזהר, ומגדולי המקובלים עליהם אנו (כלל ישראל) סומכים גם להלכה למעשה. (לבד מזה שגם הרבי מליובאוויטש רב גוברי’ וכו’ – בבחי’ רב תנא הוא, ואם השתמש באותיות אלו בנוגע לחמיו זצ”ל, ומאות פעמים, זה לעצמו כבר יכול להיות מקור ובר סמכא).

    ועד”ז בנוגע לדרכי ההשפעה על אחב”י וכו’, הרי הרבי מליובאוויטש, וחסידי חב”ד עצמם כבר אתמחי גברא ואתמחי קמיע, ומי יודע יותר מהם איך הוא הגישה הנכונה לקרב אחב”י, ובאופן שרק זאת ולא אחרת וכו’.

    ורק נהרא נהרא ופשטי’.

    עפ”י הנ”ל נראה שכל המח’ באה רק בעצת היצר ר”ל, הרוצה דוקא לעשות קטיגוריא בין ת”ח. כנראה שלא מרגישים איזה צרה הנהגה כזאת תביא ר”ל בכרם ישראל, והבערה ללאו יצאת, וכי תצא אש גו’ שלם ישלם המבעיר את הבערה!

    מה אתם חושבים שליובאוויטש ישתקו, ובפרט בענין הנוגע לדררא דממונא, והרי ת”ח ממונם חביב עליהם יותר מגופם כו’, איזה חילול השם תגרום מחלוקת כזו. ואלו החושבים כולו רק לש”ש – מצד מה יאמרו הבריות – יחשבו בעיון א) איזה השפעה תעשה מחלוקת זו על אחב”י שעדיין לא התקרבו לתומ”צ. ב) ועוד יותר, כאשר יתגלה הכל ברבים – דעת מי יתקבל יותר – דעת ליובאוויטש, שעוסקים בכל קצוי תבל וארה”ב בכלל, בידידות רבה, והולכת וכובשת לבבות אחב”י, או דברי איזה ראש ישיבה (ואפי’ כמה מהם). והרי כאשר ידפיסו – ליובאוויטש – השורש על הנהגותיהם, איך שהיא מיוסדת על חז”ל בנגלה ובנסתר (ועל דברי הרבי עצמו), מה יועיל מה שאחד יגיד “דעת תורה” שלו עצמו.

    וברכנו אבינו כאשר כולנו כאחד דווקא. וה’ יברך את עמו בשלום.

    Mendy
    Mendy
    15 years ago

    ז’ תמוז תשנ”ו:

    להלן מענה לשאלות הרבות אודות עמדתי בהנוגע לליובאוויטש ואמונתם המשיחית.

    לפני ג’ תמוז כללתי את עצמי בין אלה שהאמינו כי הרבי היה ראוי להיות המשיח. אני מאמין באופן מוחלט, כי לו היינו – במיוחד הקהיל האורטודוקסית – מאוחדים, היינו זוכים לגאולה השלימה.

    בקשר לאמונה של רבים מחסידי חב”ד (כולל רבנים מובהקים וראשי ישיבות) – אמונה המיוסדת על הצהרות דומות של הרבי בעצמו, בקשר לקודמו בתפקיד הרבי הקודם, כולל רבנים חשובים וראשי ישיבות, שהרבי יכול עדיין להיות משיח – לאור הגמרא בסנהדרין, הזוהר, האברבנאל, כתבי האריז”ל, השדי חמד ועוד מקורות – אני לא יכול לומר שהאמונה הזאת היא דבר שמחוץ לזרם האורתודוכסי.”

    “כל ניסיון ציני להשתמש בחילוקי דיעות איך לפרש בנושא זה, ולהשתמש בזה כדי להזיק לתנועת חב”ד שהייתה ועדיין ממשיכה להיות התנועה שעומדת בראש הלוחמים במיסיון ובהתבוללות, רק יכול להביא יותר לבעיות בקהילה היהודית, ובמיוחד בקהילה התורנית.

    על המחנה התורני לגייס את כל כוחותיו להתאחד, ברוח האמיתית של אהבת ישראל ולהילחם באויב האמיתי של ישראל. אני מוחה וקורא להפסיק כל תעמולה להכפיש את תנועת ליובאוויטש או כל זרם לגיטימי אחר בתוך יהדתו התורה

    עד כאן ממכתבו של הרב סולובייצ’יק.

    הרב העשל גרינברג שהיה מאחורי הקלעים מספר: הייתי רוצה לספר את הרקע למכתב, כיוון שכאשר אני מזכיר את העובדה שהרב סולובייצ’יק חתם על המכתב, אנשים אומרים לי שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שזה לא נכון, שהוא אף פעם לא כתב את זה, וזה זיוף, והם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שהוא היה תחת לחץ לכתוב את זה, ואחרי זה אני שומע עוד שאנשים אומרים שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שאחרי זה הוא חזר בו וביטל את המכתב. אם הוא לא כתב את זה -איך הוא ביטל את זה?…

    ובכן, אלו הן העובדות: אני הייתי בחדרו של הרב סולובייצ’יק יחד עם עוד שני רבנים שהיו עדים איך שהרב חותם על המכתב.

    המכתב עצמו לא נכתב אישית על ידי הרב סולובייצ’יק. הוא לא לקח עט וכתב את זה, כיוון שהוא היה משותק ומאוד היה קשה בשבילו לשבת ולכתוב. המכתב הזה הכיל תוכן מהרעיונות שהרב סולובייצ’יק אמר בעל פה לרב אלי טורין משיקגו, ואני עזרתי לנסח את המכתב שיכיל את כל הרעיונות של הרב סולובייציק בנושא הזה.

    הבאנו את המכתב לרב סולובייציק. הרב סולובייציק היה גדול בתורה. אף אחד לא יכול לדמיין לעצמו שאדם בדמותו היה נכנע לכתוב בשמו, דבר שהוא כפירה. אם מישהו מאמין לזה, הוא יכול להאמין כל דבר. זה עלבון גדול לאדם בדמותו של הרב סולובייציק זצ”ל אם יאמינו עליו כזה דבר.

    היה לנו דו-שיח מאוד מהנה. דיברנו אודות הנושא ברוח טובה, ואמרנו לרב סולובייציק שזה תוכן המכתב שהיינו מבקשים לפרסם כדי להפסיק את ההתקפות הבזויות הללו על חב”ד. האם הרב מוכן לחתום על זה. הרב סולובייציק עבר על המכתב מאוד בזהירות. קרא פעם ועוד פעם, ואחר כך אמר “אני אחתום על זה”, והוא אכן חתם על זה.

    המכתב פורסם בעיתון ג’ואיש פרעס, ולפני שהם פירסמו את זה, המערכת בעצמה צילצלה לרב סולובייציק לוודא שזאת אכן חתימתו על המכתב. הוא אישר את זה, ורק אז המערכת פירסמה את המכתב.

    מה שמדברים על ההבהרה שהוא פירסם שבוע אחר כך, שמשתמע ממנה כאילו הוא חזר בדבריו, זה היה כיוון שמישהו פירש את המכתב שלא לנכון. הרב סולובייציק לא חתם שהוא אומר שהרבי הוא משיח, אלא רק שזה דבר לגיטימי, שיש מקורות לגיטימיים לאמונה של אלו שמאמינים, ואף אחד לא יכול לבקר את זה או לגנות את זה. זה תוכן מכתבו השני של הרב סולובייצ’יק, שפורסם בגואיש פרעס שבוע אחר כך.

    אם האמת כדברי האומרים שהאמונה הזאת היא כפירה -איך הרב סולובייצ’יק יכול לומר שאסור לגנות את זה?אלה שהכירו את הרב אהרן סולובייצ’יק, ואני הכרתי אותו היטב, יודעים שמדובר באדם שלא חת לפרסם את דעתו ברבים, גם כאשר היא לא נעמה לחוגים מסויימים.

    היו לי הרבה הזדמנויות לדבר איתו ולשמוע את השקפותיו החזקות בעניני יהדות. הוא היה תקיף מאוד נגד הממשל הישראלי על כך שהם החזירו שטחים תמורת הסכמי השלום המזוייפים. לאידך, הוא תמך תמיכה מלאה בעניינים שלדעתו היו חשובים, למרות שלדעת רבים ביהדות ארצות הברית הם לא היו פופולריים.

    ובנושא הזה לא שמענו שום ביקורת ממנו. הדבר היחיד ששמענו ממנו, שזאת אמונה לגיטימית המיוסדת על מקורות היהדות, ואין בעייה להאמין היום שהרבי הוא מלך המשיח. לכן, כל מי שממשיך ללחום, לבקר ולגנות את חסידי חב”ד על אמונתם זו, הוא מכריז מלחמה גם נגד גדול בתורה בדמותו של הרב סולובייצ’יק.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    The mechichist will be the next break off of judiasm.

    esther
    esther
    15 years ago

    as the freidiker [previous]lubavitcher rebbe said ”nu,at least their talking about mosiach”

    Observer
    Observer
    15 years ago

    Although on the outside many Lubavitcher’s want us to believe they are of the “normal” ones. The fact remains, the Meshichistim are growing and have the main voice in Lubavitch to-date. One only has to look at the Birchas Hachamuh led by Rabbi Butman (Meshichistim General) just this year and other on-goings in 770 headquarters to see this plainly and daily as living proof. Where is the protests by “normal” Lubavitchers? The answer.. So many of the silent “normal” ones live with this on-goings fore deep in their hearts and minds they do ponder.. perhaps the Meshichistim are right. After all they too wish he would be!

    Chaim B.
    Chaim B.
    15 years ago

    Just like evry religion there r some extremists. But never confuse Chabad with those kuku’s!
    Chabad was and is one of the prominent chasidush which are active in all maters of jiddishkeit.
    Thoso’s kuku’s r a discrase to Lubavitch and to the rebbe OBM”

    Elchonon
    Elchonon
    15 years ago

    I dont want to mix in, but as a resident of chevron we know that the avot are sleeping and did not die.. “oreh yeshanei chevron” we say. Awake sleepers of chevron.

    dovid
    dovid
    15 years ago

    to all of you who hate lubavitch you can take your learning your black hat and shove it and go to hell the basis of the torah is ahvas yisroel before anything if you dont have ahvas yisroelall your learning is worthless thats why the beis hamikdash got destroyed because of low lifes like you guys no difference chabad satmar etc you guys are disgrase to the world you learn shmiras haloshon and you slander people all you people are full of crap i as person who has no affiliation to lubavicth i can tell you ill my trips around the world they are amazing people start doing teshuva

    A Lubavitcher
    A Lubavitcher
    15 years ago

    “Ain lonu e’la divrey ben almram”, we follow what the Rebbe told us. And to all those that criticize, all i can say is: Your starting with none other then the Rebbe himself!
    Al tig’u bimishicho, u’vinvi’ay al to’re’u!!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    To 34. I highly doubt that there are other chasidic sects that really hold of their rebbe to that extent. Vedal…

    think logically
    think logically
    15 years ago

    Kudos to Rabbi Klein for saying the obvious, which is unfortunately not obvious today, with our generation’s utter confusion in so many areas of hashkafa.

    The Meshichists think the same as the rest of the Lubavitchers; the only difference is that they say what they think rather than keep quiet about it as the others do, because of fear of condemnation and contempt by other frum. That’s also why the Meshichists are tolerated in the movement, and in Israel, Kfar Chabad and other important positions in Chabad are headed by Meshichists. If the rest of the movement looked at them as an aberration, they would have had no trouble kicking them out of their group, as they did to other groups in their history.

    Let’s not forget some basic facts: The previous rebbe fostered the Messianic atmosphere around him throughout his entire career as rebbe, beginning with the very first maamor he gave when he turned rebbe in 1951. He had numerous opportunities to stop the messianic craze around him over 40 years, but to the contrary, he encouraged it. He was the one who told the chassidim to demand the revelation of Moshiach, which spurred the crazy petitions and demonstrations in the January 1993. The rebbe was too clever to openly call himself Moshiach, but he primed his chassidim so they would push his candidacy for Moshiach for him. To all those who deny it, answer this: who else arrogated for himself the appellation “Nasi Hador”? Who else talked constantly in terms of the upcoming Geula and his chassidus’ books constantly spoke about it? And why didn’t any other group in Klal Yisroel announce that their rebbe is the Moshiach as Lubavitch did, despite the chassidim feeling no less reverence for their rebbes? Anyone with half a brain cannot deny that the rebbe himself encouraged the craze.

    Just by way of illustration, in 1983, long before the division of the chassidim into Meshichistim and more sane chassidim, Lubavitch chassidim published (the Hebrew-language) “The Anthology of Torah Novellae concerning the Meshiach King” to determine how the Meshiach King will be revealed, and particularly who the Meshiach king is.. The editor writes in the introduction that although in the past they wrote little about this topic, they feel there is greater need for it now “since we’re already on the verge of the Redemption.”

    In the introduction: “This anthology was published on the occasion of the 80th birthday of the rebbe — the Meshiach king. May Hashem make this year, 1983, the revelation of the Meshiach, and may the one who stands in the breach break the walls of the Exile with the onset of the true, complete Redemption – NOW!”

    The first essay: “… throughout the generations, there was no righteous or great man who determined when Moshiach would come. Even those who calculated the final times only spoke about times that were auspicious for Meshiach’s revelation. But in our generation, we have heard clear and absolute things concerning the time of redemption and the coming of the Meshiach.

    “The period began with the announcement of the rebbe shlita as soon as he accepted the leadership on 10 Shvat 5711 (January 17, 1951), that our generation was the seventh generation of Chabad rebbes, and it is the generation of Redemption. This determination was not conditional, and it was clearly established that Meshiach will come in this generation… as was widely explained in [the rebbe’s] many discourses said over the years.”

    \”The most recent period began — according to the author — when the rebbe announced in 1980 ‘Meshiach Now!’ He explains, ‘The concept of “now” in daily life is different from the concept in relation to the waiting of generations. Nevertheless, “now” in relation to the many generations means a maximum of 2-3 years, since “now” must occur in our generation, the generation of redemption….’

    The Lubavitchers are to be pitied for the dilemma they are in. If they deny the rebbe is Moshiach, then they are admitting that the Moshiach status which he pushed for decades was a lie and he was a charlatan. But if they claim he is Moshiach, then they know they run afoul of Judaism — despite all their twisting and turning to find an acceptable theological argument that will allow him to be Moshiach.

    My 11 year old daughter was sitting on the steps with some neighborhood friends, including the 9-year old daughter of a local Lubavitcher rabbi. She asked the daughter if they believe the rebbe is Moshiach. The daughter looked confused, then she said that they believe he’s Moshiach but her parents told her not to say it. That’s the reality for the entire Lubavtich movement.

    Rabbi Klein unfairly blames the loyal chassidim for doing what their rebbe had encouraged them to do. If there is anyone to blame for this state of affairs, it is the rebbe.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    It is a bout time that a GAdol has spoken out against these Menim. These crazies are disgracing the wonderful work of Chabad and making it difficult for the Mishluchim who are doing the real work of the Rebbe Z”TL.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L passed away, years ago. He is dead.

    The meshichists are saying that he is alive. “Yechi Adonaynu Moraynu V’Rabaynu Melech HaMoshiach L’Olam Va’ed.”

    The meshichists and elohists (who believe that the L”R is “elokus b’lvush gashmi” (godliness in a physical body), and which the Yoshka believers also use against us) are spreading a false Hashkafa.

    In order to be a properly-Torah-observant Jew, one must have a proper Hashkafa, as well as a knowledge of Halacha.

    If anyone disagrees with them, Chabad said it’s because they’re Litvish. It has nothing to do with whether one is Litvish or whether one is from a Chassidic group other than Lubavitch. The L”R was not Moshiach. We have not been redeemed from Golus. Also, the L”R is dead. He is not alive.

    Emes
    Emes
    15 years ago

    Lets stop worrying who is Moshiach.- Hashem will send the real Moshiach that Hashem will choose (no-one else) as soon as we are worthy of it.

    All these signs propoganda flags badges etc. is an American invention that suits coca cola better than the holy inyan of MOSHIACH!

    big picture
    big picture
    15 years ago

    you are all missing the bigger picture. this is a power struggle for control of chabads vast network and b-h the ‘mishichistim’ are losing. this has nothing to do with moshiach. I am amazed that people both in & out haven’t figured this out yet.

    Menachem
    Menachem
    15 years ago

    Yech Hamelech I am a moshichist. The rebbi is hamelech hamoshiach, everyone has a right to belive or not to belive. I dont show animosity toward my fellow anti moshiach lubaves, and I dont need any recognition from anyone..ITS MY LIFE AND I WILL DO WITH IT WHAT I WANT

    Dollars
    Dollars
    15 years ago

    From an encoutner with the Rebbe and Rabbi Klien:

    הרבי: שמו הולך לפניו – “שונה הלכות”…
    הר”מ קליין: אם באמת שמי הולך כו’ – ברצוני שהרבי יפעל שמשיח יבוא!

    הרבי: אני הרי צועק ללא הרף אודות ביאת המשיח.
    הר”מ קליין: אבל רצוני שהרבי יפעל זאת!.. המצב דחוף ביותר… כעת צריכים רק שהרבי ינהיג את כולם לקראת משיח צדקנו.

    הרבי: תפסקו כך ב”שונה הלכות”.
    הר”מ קליין: נו, אפסוק כן גם להלכה…

    הרבי: וגם לפרסם בדפוס, הוראה לרבים

    Question Reality
    Question Reality
    15 years ago

    We all want MOSHIACH NOW!

    Let us all proclaim together “Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu V’Rabeinu Melech HaMoshiach L’Olam Vaed!

    Litvaker
    Litvaker
    15 years ago

    I think it’s time for us all to learn the concepts and halochos of Moshiach so that we can draw some sort of educated conclusion.

    Although I am not a fan of all chasidim in general including Lubavitch/ Satmar/ Belz/etc. being that my family tree goes back to Vilna and we are current talmidim of Ponovezh, It’s obvious to me that the majority of posters on this site have no clue of what they are talking about being that they have never once in their lives learnt Hilchos Beis Habchiro.

    Pre conceived notions about Chasidim or chabad or moshiach will not help you draw an honest conclusion.

    I have spent 6 months in a small Lakewood Kollel researching this very subject together with my Chavrusa and I must tell you that the average Frum/Yeshivish/Litvish guy has no clue about the subject matter.

    To make a long story short we have come to the conclusion that the Lubavitcher Rebbe could still be Moshiach.

    We have not delved into the subject of Lo Meis like we see by Yaacov Avinu or Moshe Rabbeinu. We were strictly focusing on the Moshiach issue.

    P.S. When the Rambam says Neherag he is making a clear distinction between the Amoroim in Sanhedrin Daf Tzadik Ches who are of the opinion that Moshiach could be from those who passed on and Bar Kochva who was killed.

    proud chabadsker
    proud chabadsker
    15 years ago

    Rav menashe Klein agrees with the Gemoroh and abarbanel that Moshiach can come from the dead. his only objection in the beginning is against those who say a dead Tzadik is alive.

    Besides the fact that the Rebbe disagreed with him on this point most of what Rabbi Klein says goes against what ALL chassidim believe in.

    Going to the Ohel, your own Rebbe has the potential to be Moshiach and many other things.

    Rabbi Klein also understands the Rambam as the last word on what will happen when Moshiach comes which is clearly against what ALL Chabad Rebbes understood.

    Dehainu, we follow the RambaN and not the RambaM uchedoimeh

    But thanks should go to Rabbi Klein for reaffirming the belief of a Jew that Moshiach come from someone who already pased away.

    Z
    Z
    15 years ago

    Why The Lubavitche Rebbe is not Mashiach
    From the writings of the Rambam

    1) Mashiach must to be a Navi (there is only nevuah in eretz Yisrael- the rebbe never was there). He has to be greater a navi than Avraham Avinu and less of a navi than Moshe Rabeinu.
    2) Depends on results- Rabbi Akiva thought Bar Kochva was mashiach, but when he died he realized that he was not mashiach, so he moved on.
    3) Mashiach will reign like a king and then die, and then his son will take over, and then his son, just like malchus beis david. The rebbe had no sons or daughters.
    4) Mashiach must be a decendent from Malchus beis David paternally. The rebbe was a decendent through his father in law. His father in law was the previous rebbe.

    Gevaldig
    Gevaldig
    15 years ago

    Amazing to see so many tayere Yidden so passionate about inyonei geulo u’moshiach.. And so much emesser achdus and ahavas Yisroel here. (I’m not trying to be funny – I truly believe that even those on this board who try to sound tough are merely acting out on their built-up brotherly love – b’emes)… And since there’s definitely no ulteriour motives here, one is forced to conclude that this is pure ahavas chinom which will bring us to Geulo shleimo v’emitis toikef u’miyad MaMoSh!

    And a groisser yasher koyach to R’ Klein (shlit’a? can we say this “shlit’a” at all these days without being called names??). Since I’m a proste yid and an am ho’oretz, who am I to figure if you’re a godel or a kuton? But ein zach iz for sure – you did succeed in bringing great numbers of Yidden to finally talk about Moshiach. Sh’koyach!!

    We must be MaMoSH on the threshold of the Rebbe’s hisgalus.

    Yechi HaMelech!

    Find the Facts
    Find the Facts
    15 years ago

    The Rebbe is Ben Achar ben of Dovid Hamelech.