New Square, NY – A continuing dispute over fighting fires in this small Hasidic village once again boiled to the surface when firefighters from Hillcrest yesterday responded to a blaze at the grand rabbi’s home and found that a group of unsanctioned local volunteers with a makeshift firetruck had already begun dousing the flames.
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Hillcrest Fire Chief Kim Weppler said he was concerned that the volunteers, who are part of New Square Emergency Services, may injure themselves or others because they have tried to battle blazes without proper training or equipment.
“This could have been a deadly situation. One of their members or someone from the community could’ve gotten hurt, and it delayed us getting in there,” Weppler said.
But village officials say their relationship with Hillcrest and Rockland County fire administrators has been friendly, and their volunteers were only trying to help.
“As of now our intentions are not to fight house fires,” Deputy Mayor Israel Spitzer said. “We will sit down (with Rockland fire officials) and make sure we come to an agreement and get all the necessary training in order to qualify.”
Spitzer said talks of arranging a meeting between village leaders and Rockland fire administrators had been in the works long before yesterday’s fire.
“We are definitely eager and looking forward to making sure we are working together, and we are both working for the safety of the community,” he said.
The Moleston Fire District, which oversees the Hillcrest department, took issue with New Square some two years ago because of building and safety violations there. The district threatened to stop providing emergency services to the village unless a meeting was held to discuss improving communications and setting time frames for building inspections and safety improvements.
A little more than a year ago, Weppler said, he began noticing a makeshift firetruck the size of an ambulance with a 200-gallon water tank turning up at fires across New Square.
Often, he said, volunteers would use it to fight flames without contacting the Hillcrest department. State law mandates that they report all fires to the chief of the fire district, in this case, Weppler.
“It’s absolutely illegal,” he said yesterday. “They are untrained personnel civilians participating in firefighting activities.”
The village has set up its own emergency response system, said Gordon Wren, Rockland’s fire coordinator. Rather than dialing 911, residents call a different number unique to New Square.
“Today is one of the first times they’ve had something potentially serious, but we don’t know for sure because they don’t tell us,” he said yesterday.
Wren said he worries about the volunteers because they don’t have equipment designed to protect them from smoke.
“I give these guys credit for being so courageous, but I don’t think they understand the danger of what they’re doing,” he said.
Yesterday’s fire at 10 Jefferson Ave. consumed a portion of the roof above a library.
As Hillcrest firefighters arrived, New Square volunteers were reeling in two hoses they had used to drench the flames, Weppler said.
No one was injured.
Aron Kaff, the village’s public safety coordinator, said volunteers had grabbed fire extinguishers from a nearby elementary school to defeat the fire.
“They are here to help anybody in the community,” he said. “They don’t take it upon themselves to go after house fires.”
Both sides expect to reach an agreement on policies and procedures once a meeting is established.
“There’s been some discussion on this, but obviously much more needs to be done,” Wren said. “The key here is to get all the appropriate parties together and come up with solutions.”
What do they want people to do. Should they should stand there and wait 25 minutes until the “real” firefighters arrive.
They have the nerve to threaten that they won’t respond to fires in New Square but when they set up their own solution they complain?
Their refusal to respond to New Square is illegal. New Square not wanting to take risks made alternate plans! BTW what happened to the members of Skver that where chronicled being trained as volunteer firefighters.
get a well equipped well trained himeshe fire department jus like kiryes joel
let’s have an appeal for training and equipment.
we have till Passover to be trained (cause that’s when they really burn down the houses with those feathers).
gevaldig
The fact that they were so dealyed in coming that the New Square volunteers were already reeling their hoses by the time Hilcrest FD showed is not an indication as to why they need their own responders?
200 gallons??
How do you fight a house fire with 200 gallons?
“It’s absolutely illegal,” he said yesterday. “They are untrained personnel civilians participating in firefighting activities.”
Wow, who would have known that it is illegal to fight fires? What are you supposed to do just watch thing burn untill Big Brother comes and saves you?
Are you allowed to blow out matches or put out your barb-Q?
What realy bothers them is that the fire is knocked out long before they arrive and most important of all, it is knocked out before it even becomes a big fire, because they are always around the corner and soooo quick. The Hillcrest Fire Department are only looking for action, to fight real structure fires, but nebach, these volunteers are stealing their fun. Again, these volunteers get to the scene before its even a serious fire. If we would have to wait for Hillcrest, forget about it, it would be a fully engulfed structure fire.
Remind you of the keystone cops, or in this case, the keystone firefighters. These guys were never trained in firefighting skills. What were to happen if r”l a serious situation developed inside New Square. Would you want these guys running around in a toy fire engine?
OK. Let the clowns from New Square take over fire fighting responsibilities and let the Rebbe’s house burn down next time. It would serve them right. Once and for all there has to be compliance with the rules, whether you like them or not or whether they make sense to the ehrleche yiddin of New Square Emergency Squad who appear to behave more like the fire department in Chelm.
We all still remember 2-3 years ago when a shed next to a house was on fire due to children playing with fire and these volunteers started to put it out in order to avoid the house to catch fire and a Ramapo Police Officer pulled out the hose from these volunteers hands and threatend him with arrest.
We are unfortunately still in golus and like the one sheep surendard by sebenty wolfs.
I was personally there, and let me clarify the facts. The fire happened at 2:55 PM and 911 was called IMMEDIATELY! I personally called 911 at 2:57 seeing the roof burning (from a torch by a worker who fixed the roof), and was told that the call came in already and that the firefighters are on their way. about 2:58-2:59 the so called “New Square Emergency Services” arrived, and equipped with small fire extinguishers started to put out the fire by going safely on other sides of the roof. A minute or two later that small truck arrived and the fire was completely put out in about 3- 5 minutes, before it was a full scale structure fire. The Hillcrest FD arrived, believe it or not, at 3:15(!), as usual. (For those of you living in the city, in upstate there are no paid firefighters sitting in the station ready for a fire alarm. They are all volunteers who first have to come by car to the central fire atation, and after a few members arrive they come with the firetruck, it can take very long).
The firefighters were mad when they arrived and saw that the fire was long out. As an excuse they said they where called late. Deputy Mayor Israel Spitzer didn’t want to respond harshly to this article and complaint on the local FD because he still wants to have a good relationship with them.
By the way the so called “makeshift firetruck”, is a State funded legal small fire vehicle given to the Village of New Square to put out minor fires before it becomes danger.
Now let me go back to a bit of history. The approx. wait time for firefighters to arrive would be anytime between 10-25 minutes. After a few structure fires in New Square the local leaders decided that something must be done. Strong building code measures were taken, for example every 2 family house or more now needs a fully operating sprinkler system; more space between one house and the other etc. One of the measures taken was to TRAIN first responders, who can be there within minutes, to respond to small fires. They are fully trained by a private group as to when to fight and when not. They never go in to dangerous situations. They are only putting out fires when it’s relatively small enough that there is no danger involved, just like any of you would put out a burning pot in your home. They usually respond to small fires like a microwave burning etc. that can be put out easily within minutes but can be very fatal if you wait 20 minutes…….
To all of you here don’t forget הוה דן את כל האדם לכף זכות.
To my leaders in New Square: I know you don’t like to come out against them because you dont want to make a fight and Chilul Hashem, but I just couldn’t sit quiet here, sorry.
The average FD response time in Rockland is around 6 minutes. This is not from when the fire starts, it from when the FD is dispatched (1-2 minutes for the 911 operator to take the call, confirm the address and nature of the emergency, then dispatch). So it’s about 8 minutes on average from when 911 is dialed to when the FD gets there.
Fire grows very rapidly & exponentially, it can be 8-10 times as big when the FD arrives than it was when the 911 call was made. It is imperative that the FD be called immediately upon discovery of a fire. If the dispatched is delayed the fire grows even more. Additionally, if the fire is improperly Vented, it will grow at an even faster pace.
In this situation everything seemed to work out OK, but to expect it to workout every time is probably not a very good expectation. Please don’t underestimate the value over properly trained Firefighters, even if they take a few minutes longer to get there.
Also many of the buildings in New Square are built using lightweight construction techniques. Once the fire progresses from a contents fire to the structure itself, deadly strucural collapse occurs within minutes. If the structural components are involved the FD will fight the fire from the extrior, and the building may burn to the ground. No fire chief is going to risk the lives of firefighters to save the building if there is nobody confirmed to be trapped inside. The lives of firefighters IMHO (and of most others) are more important than the building. FYI, this is why the FD has been begging for building codes to be enforced to protect the building occupants, firefighters and the buildings themselves.
Although i may agree with the rockland county authorities that an untrained fire response team can be dangerous because they are untrained etc,
I have a problem with the authorities calling it illegal for untrained people to attempt to help douse a fire….
Whats next…. if someones havdallah candle accidentaly sets a tablecloth on fire and the family run in from the kitchen with buckets of water to put out the fire….. will they be arrested for being untrained fire fighters and not waiting for the official fire department to arrive?
by the way…. I think is is great to have a truck with water that can come and start spraying water on a fire until the trained fire department arrive.
Every little bit helps. Perhaps in their 3 minutes of spraying water they can help stop the spread of the fire and minimize property damage and injuries.
I pray to hashem that nobody in the community will need them or the actual fire department.
Have a safe summer everyone.
100’s of houses were saved from these volunteers. Keep up your great work. My neighbor’s house almost burned down if not for their quick action. The fire dept. is extremely slow.
There are plenty of fully trained “heimishe” volunteer fire fighters in Monsey. Both on the Monsey dept and on the Hillcrest. VFD. NS is to be commended for attempting to maintain an atmosphere of cooperation with the local VFD. Unfortunately, in this case, the sight of chassidim fighting a fire apparently made some Gentile make the assumption that they were untrained and ill equiped. What is needed is more cooperation and, perhaps establishing a full fledged New Square VFD.
At the fire training school, I was told the minimum requirement too fight fires, is a 500 gallon tank. From that tank, portable smaller carry-ones are there to fight fires when a hose takes a few minutes to set-up. (APCO Fire Communication Procedures).
To no. 23: Thanks for clarifying the emes, so that the people can see for themselves what a mitzva is being done to protect Yiddishe lives. BTW, in the city, Hatzola is always faster than FDNY or local ambulances, and much more dignified for heimeshe people.
NS Emergency Services, being used as a First Responder for fires is an excellent idea, hopefully they will work out there differences with the local FD, and perhaps do joint training exercises.
I wish it would be in boro park etc. small jewish fire trucks.
to all the litvesha chasidem bashers please dont apply double standerd in ur community i mean to say that if u have a fire in ur community chas vsholem please do not let any one try to help u put out the fire just wait for the fd to arrive(good luck if u have vol.fd in ur area) AND IF SOME WHO HAS BRAINS WILL HELP U PUT OUT THE FIRE PLEASE REPORT HIM RIGHT AWAY TO PD BECAUSE LETS NOT FORGET …………. DINA DMALCUSHA DINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#48 .. it was just 2 lamebrains who made that remark…you cant say the same of all benei torah, after all ‘lo samod al dam reyacha’ if you can help it, equipped for it… and fire is definately a chasshash of ‘lo samod…’
A little more than a year ago, Weppler said, he began noticing a makeshift firetruck the size of an ambulance with a 200-gallon water tank turning up at fires across New Square.
Often, he said, volunteers would use it to fight flames without contacting the Hillcrest department. State law mandates that they report all fires to the chief of the fire district, in this case, Weppler.
“It’s absolutely illegal,” he said yesterday. “They are untrained personnel civilians participating in firefighting activities.”
The village has set up its own emergency response system, said Gordon Wren, Rockland’s fire coordinator. Rather than dialing 911, residents call a different number unique to New Square.
“Today is one of the first times they’ve had something potentially serious, but we don’t know for sure because they don’t tell us,” he said yesterday.
Wren said he worries about the volunteers because they don’t have equipment designed to protect them from smoke.
“I give these guys credit for being so courageous, but I don’t think they understand the danger of what they’re doing,” he said.
Volunteer fire departments are made up of dedicated, well-trained volunteers from many different communities.
Obviously, if the volunteers have to come from outside, it takes longer.
I lived near the fire house in Monsey, and observed the scene many times:
It seems that upon hearing the siren, the volunteers come to the fire station and then proceed to the fire with the proper equipment.
I don’t know if there are other firefighters who are directed by the chief to go straight to the fire location.
Obviously, those who are closer to the fire station get help sooner than those who live farther away. The volunteers in Monsey apparently included individuals both from inside and outside the community. I base this on my observation of their clothing, and other tell tale signs. I was not part of the drama, but it seemed to me that they were working together, regardless of their religious affiliation.
It is easy to say “we can do it better”, or “we care more”.
The problem often lies in attitude.
Volunteers who go through the proper training are welcome in most organizations. A volunteer fire fighter must be willing to drop whatever he is doing and attend to the fire of any citizen, regardless of who he is.
Anyone who hesitates to ask overtly or covertly about the culture of the person whose house is burning, is not going to be welcome.
If these volunteers are properly trained, why can’t they join the general volunteer fire corps?
Yes, it is normal to care more about your brother than about a stranger.
But that should not affect your public service.
If it does, you should not be in public service!
I grew up in a family that has been frum in the U.S.A. since 1901.
I was raised to remember that I am in golus.
I was raised to have hakaras hatov for our current hosts, who treat klal yisrael with chesed, unlike the reshaim of yesteryear, or those who are living in other countries today.
I was raised to treat American civil servants with respect.
Not because they necessarily deserve it, but because that’s the proper way to act.
I was taught not to act arrogant among goyim.
Boruch HaShem I can and do keep Torah and Mitzvos in a country that protects my right to do that.
I am very, very proud to be a Yid.
But I AM still in golus, and that’s nothing to be proud of.
It’s not cool to admit that we are in golus because of our own aveiros.
We’d rather pretend that mashiach is here already.
He isn’t.
Really.
May we be zoche to hear the shofar of mashiach b’mehayra, b’yamaynu.
Amen.
#54 so what you’re trying to say?..
If u c a fellow man drop watch out don’t perform CPR. U might break the law. Today in the news a mother with 2 children were trapped in a burning car. The strange never trained passerby saved all 3 of them. Mother and 2 children, what kind of non sense is this? “DON’T HELP” sit idle? We yiden have from hatzula trucks till battery boosters this our profession we do it for a living… HELPING PPL regardless if its a transfer from around the world to a special DR. To ER. Or change a tire 4 in the morning. We deliver food and we borrow everything. From dresses to formula. So please who ever says Don’t help is a question if he is M’zaro Avruhum..
But I never dreamed so we have have reached such a low.. If u don’t help well let’s say its ok. But to condemn others that help.. Rochmua Litzlun!! so now in the 3 wks let’s all take upon to go one step further. This who helped should do more. And those who did not should shut up
#41 and what gaurautee do you have that someone is not in the house , or the fire will not spread to others and lives would be in danger ?.do you think the fire going to heed you as your so concerned with others lives, and say since your such a nice guy i’ll contain myself. besides ,you can say it now as it doesnt affect you emotionally, but if c’v it will happen you’ll be out of control ‘adom bohill al mumono’ and you will not control yourself knowing youll be without a roof over your head for few years or even worse, so dont be such a ‘oiber chuchem’ and if lets say you have your cash hidden under your mattress….
1) No one is saying that it is illegal for you or your neighbor to put out a small fire. What is illegal is to “respond” (receive calls, dispatch personnel and equipment, operate on scene, etc.) in an “official” capacity without proper training and certification.[BTW, I know Mr. Wren and others in the office; highly doubt it is antisemitism that motivates them: they are truly worried about untrained responders and the problems of uncertified response teams]
2) Fighting fires is much more than putting water (200 gallon tank???) on the flames.
3) Without training, to stand on a roof that is on fire is foolish and placing yourself at undue and unacceptable risk.
4) Fighting fires is, like so many things, a skill that requires practice. If the volume of fires in NS isn’t enough to make the members of Emergency Services proficient, maybe (forgive me!) they should join some of the local squads to get experience. I know frum guys that were on the Monsey VFD. For the sake of the lives and property, would it be so horrible to build bridges with the local squads? To become a certified Firefighter and get some experience?
Hatzolah started because of an identified need in the community. Now, many guys are working as EMTs and Paramedics for FDNY (or the hospital ambulances in the NYC 9-1-1 system), making a parnasa, and using skills acquired in the busy 91-1 to the advantage of Hatzolah–it’s a two-way street.
#59 …its not ‘shvache heterim’ its no heter whatsoever, probably coming from ‘rabbis’ like emanual rahman’s ,you know heter cell phones on shabbes ,y.t. , woman kibbudim under the chuppah…
Wonderful to see such Ahavas Yisroel, You should all be ashamed of yourselves. But you will all be so holy come Tisha B’Av.
Let New Square establish a fire department….no problem if their equipment is up to code and their members properly trained. To allow a bunch of wanna-be’s to take on a job that requires hours upon hours of practice and learning is insane. KJ has a legit department and real eqipment. Their vehicles can be viewed at FDNYTRUCKS.COM under Orange County then the KJ location. Fire fighting is not just putting water on a fire but a science of how to attack a fire and what fire may do under different conditions. I have ties to theFDNY and have watched firemen train at their academy on Randalls Island and trust me it’s not just hoses and water but hours of hard traing under tough conditions to learn about what fire can or may do. Good intent here but they are not dealing in reality up at New Square.
Since you appear to like the word reality let’s deal with it…and that is that you are breaking the law and so far these wanna-be’s have been lucky since no -one has been hurt. The State of NY must certify a fire department to opperate and unless you have that certification you are in violation of state law. Why don’t you folks get your old friend Hillary Clinton to help you get the proper certification and get you on the road to be legitimized or is New Square above the laws of the state? I truly hope that until that happens no one who is involved in this make believe fire department is hurt or worse and that my friend is a reality!!
#69 allan, why dont you just worry what goes on in your backyard, the town of sq. did perrrrrty well the last 40 years without your unsolicited advice.
#71they are very responsible, i know them personally….just knock down your arrogance!!
The State of NY has standards for the regulation/training of firefighting personnel and their equipment.(outdated and under code equipment must be retired) Matter of fact every state has those rules. There are fire traing academies in most counties These standards are in regard to the output of water from trucks and the level of training that a member of a volunteer departments must get to get state certification etc etc etc.. No you won’t get put in jail for dousing a fire a in your neighbor’s kitchen if indeed you are sucessful (spraying water on a cooking fire can actually spread the fire not douse it). My whole point is that we are a society of rules, laws and regulations and no community can just take it upon themselves to by-pass those rules…lives are at stake here and in this particular case these are Jewish lives..If you are really curious google NYS fire traing codes and regulations you may get a better insight…or go to the official FDNY site and watch how firemen are trained..not an easy job to take on. What I don’t get is why all this need to fight the system rather than join it??