JERUSALEM (VINnews) —While Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu took an uncompromising stand against Chaim Walder after his suicide and strengthened the resolve of those who had complained against him, a sharply different approach emerged from the words of Rabbi Gershon Edelstein, the rosh yeshiva of Ponovezh and one of the leaders of the Lithuanian yeshiva world.
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In a discussion with Chareidi educators including Yad Aharon Rosh Yeshiva Rabbi Yehoshua Eichenstein published by the Kan and Mako news outlets, Rabbi Edelstein quoted the gemara in Sanhedrin which says that “one who has relations with a married woman has a portion in the World to Come but one who publicly shames his friend has no portion in the World to Come.” He added that “even if according to halacha we need to beware of someone, there is no leniency or even hint of leniency allowing people to spill blood and murder a Jew. It is obvious that this is deemed murdering him and it is obvious that the murderer has no portion in the World to Come. It is clear that the great pressure he was under led him to lose his sanity and kill himself. This is called murder.”
Rabbi Edelstein also referred to how to broach the matter to schoolchildren: “Even if the melamed feels that he has a view on the matter, it is critical to transmit to children only the viewpoint of the Torah and to cry out about how dangerous it is to publicly embarrass other people. They should be told that evil people slandered him and publicized the slander everywhere until he was embarrassed to show his face outside and became mentally deranged to the point that he killed himself.”
The letter was published in response to a dilemma presented by educators on how to deal with children’s questions about Walder’s suicide.
Rav Edelstein shlita may be unaware of the recording where Walder stated explicitly to a woman he had an affair with that he will kill himself if it becomes public. This was some time before he was subjected to public cancellation. So suicide was his plan all along — it was not the result of mental
Illness from intolerable humiliation, as difficult as that is for a rebbe to explain to talmidim. He led a double life for many years and grew increasingly emboldened when he realized he could get away with anything. But now his world was tumbling down, and he followed through on his plan. Coming clean and doing teshuva was not an option acceptable to him, though he encouraged exactly that in many of his stories. All those condemning the Zionist Rav Eliyahu for butting into the internal affairs of the Chareidi world should realize that he was begged to get involved because no Chareidi Beis Din would touch it. Rav Edelstein would do well to account for why Walder was not dealt with internally. Those in the Chareidi world (not CVS Rav Edelstein) who knew and had the opportunity to stop Walder but didn’t are guilty of destroying all those souls he ruined.
Where is the signed letter? Would love to see it. Secondly, Walder did not only live with married women and ruin countless lives, he also raped young kids essentially killing them. The olam haba status of a rapist should be akin to one who publicly embarreses someone as both are ab act of murder. Thirdly, there is a concept in hilchos L”H of ‘sani shumanei’, a person who has multiple accusers that he transgressed a serious sin like arayos is allowed to be shunned publicly and one is allowed to believe the story. Furthermore, a beis din took trstimony and claims to have incontrovertible evidence implicating him on terrible sins. This is not a case of loshon Hora killing someone but a tragic story of a sick and dangerous person who sucked the soul out of his victims and couldn’t face the music when the time came to face the consequences for his actions. Articles like this WILL empower abusers in the frum community. Gedalia ben Achikam got killed for not believing L”H and we are still reeling from that story till this day! Wake up!
Chaim Walder decided to kill himself. To suggest that those who spoke out against him for what he did actually murdered him implies that nobody can ever take down the most evil people because they might be cowards who will end their life. Preposterous.
Anyone familiar with the laws of Shmirat HaLashon knows that we are allowed to talk about abusers & the terrible things they do for the sake of getting justice & protecting others. Those abuses can lead to serious harm & even death. Shmirat HaLashon doesn’t trump Pikuach Nefesh. This statement by R’ Edelstein is a way of twisting & corrupting Halacha to protect the abuser when we should be protecting the victims.
So basically outcome from this debacle is to sympathize with a child predator and blame others for the outcome. Let’s all feel guilty for the horrors committed by someone else.
This is sad and helpless. Seems we learn nothing from these horror stories..
The charitable thing to say is that he is misled and being taken out of context. Probably closer to the truth is that he has no capacity to have rachmonos on the victims. Why is he talking about aishis ish? We all know that’s not the issue. That’s the least of the problems. He RAPED little children. Is there a din loshon hara on speaking bad about Hitler? Walder killed himself because he did not want to face his actions. And he knew he was caught. We did nothing wrong. Teaching that nonsense to kids only perpetuates the problem.
so basically, if a parent of an abused child takes a knife (in israel) or a gun (in the us) and kills the accused (not convicted) molester, he will have a share in the world to come (since this aveira is in the category as aishes ish), but if he organizes a protest outside the accused molester’s house, then he does not have a share in the world to come.
Did I understand this right or not?
Very disappointing….
No repeat no reference to the victims
Evil people slandered him? Does the rav include the victims r”l?
This will simply perpetuate abuse and embolden abusers r”l.
Does this Rav have any real world experience with abuse and abuse victims?
My question is will C Walder get kevuros Yisroel or will he be ostracised as someone who was מעבד עצמו לדעת? He clearly laid out his plan on the recording to manipulate the woman.
And given the picture emerging would he not be a rodef whose killing would even be allowed to protect others?
Using torah to silence victims of abuse is yet another abuse tactic. This is no better than Walder himself. Not surprising, since rabbinical leaders have used torah to protect abusers for far too long but this has gone on long enough. We are calling their bluffs just as we call Walder’s YS. We are going to continue to fight for justice. May all the survivors of his abuse find healing and comfort and may this rabbi find a new job.
Hagaon Harav Eidelstein must be misinformed by his handlers. This isn’t the case merely about an adulterer, but about someone who used kids (!!!) for his ugly taavois rachmana litzlon.
The fact that he has been confirmed an adulterer makes him a rasha that the Chofetz Chaim allows to speak ill about — even without the credible evidence that he exploited holy yiddishe nashomos.
This should be a time for talking to our kids about safety, and not protecting the legacy of a rasha. Suicide was his own choice, and he himself clearly stated in recordings that he was planning to do that if and when his horrific deeds are made public.
תהא מיתתו כפרתו, והחי יתן אל לבו.
What about ‘the wall of shame’ Is that all considered loshon hara?
How do we know to stay away from certain people, if noone tells us?
This is so unfortunate
I asked a simple question and it wasn’t posted so I’m asking again. Rabbi Edelstein said that “even if according to halacha we need to beware of someone, there is no leniency or even hint of leniency allowing people to spill blood and murder a Jew.” So if according to halacha we may publicize information about an sinner and abuser to save potential victims, if that perp will say that he’ll kill himself if the truth is publicized then we don’t publicize it because he threatened to kill himself and we put others at risk even if halachically you are required to make the public aware? So depending on how well the perpetrator makes himself into the victim our response should be accordingly?
As to whether or which laws of loshon hara apply to the accused, we can all agree that they fully apply to the talmidei chachamim involved. Agree or disagree with them respectfully.
Editor: the article is misleading, in my humble opinion. The original discussion, which I have read, discussed how to translate this story for children – only that. Kids are extremely confused about all this, I know mine are. So the message for kids ought to be about bein adam l’chaveiro.
You, on the other hand, should know the truth. That is what Rabbi Eichenstein and Edelstein are saying.
The article seems to read that Rav Gershon was supporting Walder. This is untrue.
Suddenly the usual ” Gedolim ” quoters are questioning them ; here & vaxx. They’re misled , others spoke for them , they’re not aware , bla bla.
There is only one murderer here, the person who killed himself.
Unbelievable. These Rabonim will defend their own, no matter what, how or who. If any of their students had been involved in anything like this they would be thrown out.
The accusations are not only from married woman, accusations are from 22 women, girls and boys. A man in the chareidi community (CW) is accused of assault, but because “…people slandered him and publicized the slander everywhere until he was embarrassed…” and he committed suicide, the leaders of the chareidi world look away from the alleged assault and accusations and are concerned only with the slander and embarrassment. Is that the halacha/Torah view point? I have emunas chachamim and I want to understand. Would Rav Edelstein be willing now, posthumously to investigate the accusations? Would he convene a bais din, and hear testimony from the 22 women, girls and boys who brought accusations against CW? Does embarrassment absolve a person from accountability? Should chareidi children be taught safety, in a tznius way?
And that is why R Edelstein is one of Godel haDor…..
I believe the following understanding is correct according to the Torah. There is rarely one person in any generation, who is “gadol hador” that all of klal yisroel must accept his psak. We have many kehilos, and a member of a kehila must listen to the posek of his kehila. Rav Eliyahu is a talmid Chochom and members of his kehila listen to him (and they won’t loose olam habah for doing so). Those who have accepted Rav Edelstein should listen to his psak. I remember about 45 years ago when I was in Mir NY, a therapist just like Walder, who was considered very good and even had a great radio program, was exposed to be a child molester (some of the younger boys in the Mir came forward to report him). The Litveshe Roshei Yeshiva came out in unison taking Rav Eliyahu’s position of going after the rasha publicly and even reporting him to the police. They gave him a din of rodef, thus it was not mesira. the man ran to E”Y before he could be prosecuted. Even then, the Gedolim in America publicly warned the Bene E”Y about this guy.
Guilty are all those that knew from the start i.e. years ago but failed to inform the police.
Thank you Rav Edelstein.
At the end of the day this is not for us to decide. We are not a Beis Din. We are World Jewry, not the World Jury. We have no business having this discussion – for us it is pure lashon Hora about a deceased who we can’t even ask mechila of. This discussion is not for us.
Guilty were those who knew years ago but failed to inform police.
walder has no chelek in oilem habah and he for sure is burning away in gehinom
כן יאבדו כל אוביך השם
PRECEDENT; question thats bothering me? wht do u think
rav moshe , rav yakov , rav gifter, rav schwab,rav ruderman…. these gedolim built america , giants ..
they definitly knew many ” stories” every yeshiva , camp , community had their share of molesters … YET THEY DIDNT TAKE THIS ROUTE , WHY?
was it that they didnt fully comprehend the damage done to the victim ?
was it a question of no eidus & testimony from a koton or ketanoh?
was it that frying the perp to help the victim is not a halchic option?
or did they think he wont do it anymore?
( u might find an isolated incident where they kicked a guy out but in general…)
Can we please take down this story? The number of people disrespecting and possuling what a gadol says SCARES me! When did so mnay people decide they know more than daas Torah.
Have we lost all proportions? Do we want covid to stop? Moshiach to come?
I don’t belong here anymore. The gedolim are right, the internet is poison.
I am not big enough to argue with Rav Edelstein shlit”a, but humbly ask, don’t we say “ain shliach l’dvar aveirah”? How can someone be held responsible for an aveirah (of suicide) that someone chose to do? Particularly an adult?
Rabbi Eichenstein now put out a letter admitting that Walder did what he did but we need to talk quietly about it because of tznius reasons. Oh boy! I guess loshon hora is off the table.
Can the victims bring their cases to bais din or court posthumously? Perhaps to sue his estate?
HOW DOES ANYONE KNOW THAT HE DID THESE THINGS THERE WAS NOOOOOOOOO HALACHIK DIN TORAH
I think the rosh yeshiva didn’t have all the information otherwise he could not have been able to make this statement
I find it so ironic that people who drooled over every word Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu said-who to make it clear is a zionist which has no place yiddishkeit will now bash Rabbi Edelstein, who according to ALL is a gadol in Torah. And just to be clear, Rabbi Edelstein did not say Chaim Walder was innocent, all he said was we should not have spoken lashon hara.
R Edelstein is obviously out of his depths here.
The laws of Lashon Hara do not apply in this situation. When an armed individual goes on a shooting rampage, there is no requirement to take him to Bais Din before calling the police. Furthermore, it is not “Lashon Hara” to warn others to take cover. The individual in question was engaged in ongoing criminal activity of an extremely severe nature, and those aware of it would have been in the right to go to the police without first going to Bais Din. How much more so sis they have a right to warn others.
When a person commits suicide, it is a sin that is severely punished. There’s no allowance in Halacha for mental anguish being an extenuating circumstance.
Similarly, it does seem that there is no Halachic consideration of psychological trauma that victims of sexual abuse suffer. It’s just considered a sin by the perpetrator, equivalent to say, eating on Yom Kippur.
This guy is a shame for all Jewish community. We should demand his resignation.
The only person with blood on his hands is the rabbi. But when he meets his maker he’ll answer for it
Our real gedolim have spoken.
It’s hard to believe these people- where were they all these years.
OMG!
כִּי יִמְצָא אִישׁ נַעֲרָ בְתוּלָה אֲשֶׁר לֹא אֹרָשָׂה וּתְפָשָׂהּ וְשָׁכַב עִמָּהּ וְנִמְצָאוּ וְנָתַן הָאִישׁ הַשֹּׁכֵב עִמָּהּ לַאֲבִי הַנַּעֲרָ חֲמִשִּׁים כָּסֶף
דברים פרק כב