Crown Heights, Brooklyn NY – The New York State’s Supreme Court ruled today on the long-standing battle over the legal owners of 770 and 784-788 Eastern Parkway.
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Judge Ira B. Harkavy gave Agudah Chasidi Chabad and Merkos L’Inyonei Chinuch the full ownership of the buildings that represent the worldwide headquaerters of Chabad-Lubavitch, and ordered Congregation Lubavitch Inc. [CLI] to vacate the premises as governing body. If they do not comply, the city marshals will enforce the ruling.
CLI also has to pay a bail of $500,000 within seven days, to guarantee the buildings, pending an appeal. In addition; they have to continue paying the operating expenses during the appellate proceedings within 60 days.
The last statement almost made some sense. But lost it all at the end.Lubavitch is a philosophy of Judaism not a piece of property. The Rebbe taught ahavas yiroel and torah.I am proud to be his student and Chasid.Through those teachings he will live on forever just like all great holy men.Lubavitcher
I’ve been scanning the comments and a few thoughts crossed my mind:
1 – There are some Anonymous writers that know so little about English grammar that from the onset their opinions lose any seriousness.
2 – Some other express their opinions but have no name (even if fictitious) which renders them also, untrustworthy; it seems that they try to hide behind the uniformity of one name (or garb): Anonymous.
3 – Again if we have this forum generated on occasion of a Court ruling about real property why would some talk about……..mikvehs! Are they absentminded or just without any mind at all?
4 – And last but not least, you have the ones that are such simpletons that give out nice invitations for coexistence and peaceful neighboring and in the same sentence they take sides with the moshichstim or the regularishtim. Can’t we once and for all either get rid or crown Shmuel Buttman as the big boss?
I get reminded of this great friend of mine who once said: “I’m a chusid of the Lubavitcher Rebbe but not a Lubavitcher chusid”. Me too Boruch Hashem, oh yeah!
What shockingly unappealing comments to make. “Fundraising Shluchim” have huge chabad centers, flourishing with hundreds of participants to their programs and hundreds of children attending their camps and schools…it is not as you state “a place for lubavitchers to go as they travel”. Rather Chabad Houses are places where hundreds of thousands of Jews come for inspiration, guidance and acceptance as they grow in their awareness of Yiddishkeit.
What absolute ignorance on your part. Regarding the three years you give Chabad, that is just as insane as your previous comment…I am sorry to tell you that Chabad will be here till Moshiach comes. We are thriving and doing well,as I hope you are as well. Our Rebbe loved us, his Chassidim, and he loved you, even those who did not love him. That is something for you think about and perhaps you will be ashamed of your anger and your hatred towards your fellow Jews.
The core group of Lubavitch as we know it today, the people who actually live in Crown Heights, is a fractured, dying breed. They are a community without a leader, and it is only a matter of time before they totally self-destruct.
Maybe the fund-raising shluchim will continue to function in their capacity as the place to go for Lubavitchers who travel the globe. But the average frum Jew sees Lubavitch as irrelevant.
I give them 3 years.
Rafael V. Rabinovich
HE IS DEAD!
YOU ARE NUTS!
THEY ARE RIGHT TO KICK YOU AND YOUR KIND OUT!
YOU GUYS HAVE LEFT JUDAISM AND FORMED A CHR*TIAN-LIKE CULT.
Mommy 8:49
I have been away from NY area for over 20 years… and. ….No, those practices are NOT done in ALL shuls, just because they are away from NY.
I have been in many NON-Chabad shuls where they would never consider doing the things you wrote.
There are many places where the rov knows the people who would expect those kovods, like mafter yona, and are not shommer shabbos. The rov speaks to them before yom tov, and explains that he can’t do that. It is done with love, discreetly.
I know of one rov, whose deal with the Board is that He will personally bid against such a person, if caught unawares. He is not responsible for that money, but he gives the aliya or kovod to someone else. Yes, the shul is out the money.
But he may then buy and give pesicha for that person from whom he bid the kovod away.
Some speak before Yom Tov to a couple of people in the shul who are worthy, and would bid, and ask them to wait and bid on those things, or against those people. They understand the procedure, and all work together with love.
There are ways of doing it, and once the people know, there is less of a problem.
But the bottom line is that they are NOT ALL doing it.
And as far a shalich tzibur? Have you looked into the shulchan aruch to see the REQUIREMENTS for a shalich tzibbur?
If you walk into shul and there is a clear mechallel shabbos be’farhesya at the amud, one who does it openly, with no plan to change, and knows better, one should ASK HIM TO STEP DOWN!
Now, if there is a Rov there, one can’t do that, as that was his job. BUT ONE MAY NOT ANSWER AMEN, KIDDUSHA, OR ANYTHING TO HIS BROCHUS!
I have walked in to that, and simply walked up to the Rov, and quietly told him why I must leave.
One who is a Chabad shaliach, responded, “You are right, but what can I do?” My response was, “Take a class in Assertive Leadership.”
—
Your Second paragraph is right on the money!
8:27 PM,
A just a few historical facts to give you a background on Lubavitch mikvaos. Lubavitch always built mayaonos (a higher level of tahara than a mikva of 40 sa’ah -Mikvaot first perek) usually in a building right next to a river or lake. There were stairs going down below the water table into the mayon. When the Rebbe Rashab moved to Rostov, They were unable to buy property near the river to enable the construction of mayon, so for the first time in 100 years Lubavitch built a mikvah instead of a mayon. The Rashab zt”l reviewed every shita in mikvaos and came up with the most mehudar mikvah l’chol hadayos. The problem is not Chabad’s gaiveh, the problem is your loud mouth Lakewood (feel free to fill in another city) Rav that doesn’t reach the Rashab’s toenails in Gaonus, yiras shamayim, and mesiras nefesh, that has no clue that there are two completely different scenarios both called bor al gabai bor, but feels it must be posul because Chabad built it. The Klausenburger Rov zt”l, an einikle of the Divrei Chaim zt”l, told Rav Landau zt”l that the Rashab’s bor al gabai bor was not a problem according to the Divrei Chaim. The reason is because the The Divrei Chaim’s bor al gabai is two seperate boros connected with the pipe. The Rashab’s bor al gabai bor is one bor with a slab seperating the top and bottom,there is no katafres. If you are actually interested in halacha and feel that it’s not beneath you to buy a sefer from Kehot, you might try Taharas Hamayim and Tikunei Mikvaot You will find the gaonus of The Rashab’s mikvah; You will find the mikvas we use today have hiddurim that previous generation never dreamed about; You will also find some brilliant ideas as to how mikvaot were filled and emptied before the advent of pumps.
As far the 30+ year old attack on not sleeping in the Sukkah, Ropshitz also doesn’t sleep in the Sukkah. Does anyone accost Ropshitzer chasidim and ask “HOW COME ROPSHITZ DOESN’T SLEEP IN THE SUKKAH? Never.
Mechallei shabbos- Chabad did not invent the title “Tinuk she’nishba”, nor did Chabad invent the concept of applying the title to people who’s parents gave them no religious upbringing at all. The Kol Yehuda, the Marshag’s father, one of the Hungarian gedolim, applies the title in just such a scenario 100 years ago. But don’t let me confuse you with the facts, I’m sure your rov told you differently. But remember, that’s an old line, Eisav Harasha also said “Yesh li rav…”
No body, but NO BODY has the right to mess with the Rebbe’s Chassidim. No one on this earth has the right or authority to expel the Chassidim from 770.
Congregation Lubavitch is the congregation of the Chassidim, represented by netzigim from all the shuls in Crown Heights.
770 is our shul, and this Krinsky tyrant has no business messing with it.
Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu VeRabbeinu, Melech HaMoshiach Leoilom Voed!!!
I daven at an out-of-town garden variety nusahc ashkenaz shul. It is common practice to include not-yet shomrei shabbos (even those driving to shul for years, with no plan to change) in the minyan, give them aliyos, have them as shlaiach tzibbur, get maftir yonah etc. Before slamming chabad shuls, while living comfortably in Brooklyn, realize that out there in the hinterlands this is the common practice of ALL shuls.
Regarding the lawyers who see so mnay frum Jews at court, and had not seen it even 20 years ago, please remeber that the community is now some 20 times the size it was 20 years ago. I am not suggesting that we can ignore the problems, or that it is not painful, but let’s be realistic. In an orthodox khillah the size of today’s, we will naturally have all of the problems that the orthodox are bemoaning, i.e. divorce, abuse, drop-outs gangsters, etc. etc. Again, we should try as much as possible, to address these very real issues, but to expect the problems to be absent would takeh be yemos hamoshiach.
For the the “knowledgeable” people here, I would direct you to speak wth your rov, and if he is worth is weight (and he probably is), then he is certainly aware that there is a huge risk of a bor min hatzad becoming unkosher le’daas ha’Raaved. Under the problem of Notal Soah venosan Soah, the maim sheuvim of the mikvah can be posel the mikvah. However, with bor al gabei bor, this almost never happens and is the primary reason for the “hiddur”, as is well known by all lamdanim, that when it comes to mikvah (unoike other areas like availus etc), we try to go according to the view of ALL machmirim.
What I’m saying is, before a person slams chabad for not wanting to make BOTH boros to accommodate everyone, we should first A. be aware that the cost to make 2 boros is not “minimal” (so easy to say when you are not raising the money….) and B. obviously, a chabd rabbi will build mikvaos according to the view of their rabbaeim, which is that it is of utmost importance to take into account the very real risk that happens by a bor min hatzad outlined above (in addition to people forgetting to remove the plug, which can happen oh so easily by a bor min hatzad).
Another issue: any person that ever opened a shailos utshuvos is probably aware that most of the greatest gedolim (non lubavitch ones) have numerous teshuvas with regard to some of the “kulos” found in chaad houses and I myself have both heard those thshovos by rav wosner, aurbach etc, quoted by shluchim and have checked them myslef. Shluchim are yirei shomayim; they would never be machshil others on purpose or intentionally disregard halacha Ch”v. Why can’t we all try and be dan lachaf zechus a little? How much can our torah be worth when we besmirch hundreds of thousands of torah observant lubavitchers? Rabosai, enough already!!! Veahavta leraiacha kamocha zeh klal GADOL batorah.
8:29
there won’t be any chabad left…
just becuas your not willing to move out to yehupitz to find jews and bring them closer to yiddishkeit, doesnt give you the right to put chabad mikvaos down like this. your right, no one should tell you which rav to choose, but how does that give you the right to tell me – a chabbadnik what king a mikva to build. Its your choice to choose to use a bor al gabei bor mikva or not, chabad is not pushing you in.
there are many halachik rulings regarding the hiddurim regarding a bor al gabei bor and because of chabad and their mikvas, tens of thousands of woman who woould never know of mikva, are now using them themselves.
Good luck Chabad, may you get rid of all your crazies.
11:58
You are absolutely right.
—-
1:07
There we go, calling names to people who disagree with Lubavitch. The writer you are attacking did not say his rov assured it by halacha, but that he should not use it. People are required to follow their rov.
The bottom line in the mikvah thing is EVERYONE holds that a side by side mikva is kosher, and NOT EVERYONE likes to use the Chabad Mikvah.
So, considering the level of importance of a mikvah for the women, and for giyur, it makes sense that since they are building the community for “klall yisroel” of the neighborhood, and not just for Chabad Anash, it should be built to all people can use it.
So, if Chabad builds a “Chabad Bor al Gabao Bor” mikvah in a community where they are unlikely to have funds to build an other mikvah, that is WRONG. It shows a level of Achzorius, Gaaiva, and lack of Ahavas Yisroel. The necessity to make Chabad right, is stronger than the Chabad Ahavas Yisroel.
Chabad believes in only one dayah and that is their own. No other opinion counts to Chabad.
When one disagrees with Chabad, one is a Snag, or one of many bad names. You used the word hipocrite. Though it does not even make sense in this context, it shows the name calling if we do not agree with Chabad.
Then Chabad comes back and says that since their mikva style is a “Hiddur” … they are doing everyone a chesed by building such a mikvah. Again, that is achzorius and gaaiva. It is NOT Chabad’s place to tell other people what kind of mikva to use.
True, it is not a non-chabad person’s place to dictate to chabad either. But, if they come to a community, collect money to build a mikvah, and build a Chabad mikvah with no side bor, that is morally wrong!
Chabad does not collect money from only Chabad people. They collect the money from anybody willing to donate. So the mikvah should be for everyone.
Also, when chabad collects money for mikvah, they NEVER discolose that it will be a Chabad mikvah, and the uneducated does not even know there are variations.
The cost of adding the side bor is minimal at the time of building. It is MEAN to not build it.
No one is telling anyone to not go by their own minhag.
Here where I live, there is a “Modern Orthodox” shul that went to build a mikvah. They decided to make a mikvah for all to use. So, they actually built 2. One a bor al gabai bor, and the other a side by side. And they used a chabad rov to give the hechsher on the bor al gabei bor, and a respected Chassidish rov plus a Yeshivish rov to both give supervision to the bor min hatzad.
THAT IS AHAVAS YISROEL.
Chabad complains that they should be all be able to do their own thing…. but they want this for themselves only, and you need to do it their way.
—
And, NO, this is not about Mikvaos. But that issue demonstrate the single-minded way Chabad thinks. Nobody else’s opinion matters to them.
—-
No problem with you considering your Rebbe YOUR nasi. Yes, problem with you tell me he was MY nasi.
why write under the name of anonymous if u r proud of what u r saying???
The court decided the law of real estate ownerhip, having nothing whatsoever with what faction of Lubavitch is “correct”. We can expect that whatever the ultimate outcome of this case, the various factions will continue to have their disagreements. And, as a lawyer, I agree with my fellow atrorney who posts here about the hallways and courtrooms filled with frum Jews. Yes, it is true. It was NOT true even 20 years ago. Go to any Family Court in the NY region and you will see frum people of all types sitting there waiting for a secular judge to decide their case. You will also find frum Jews in the criminal courts and in many federal and state prisons. Prison minyans are now an accepted way of life. What is happening to us, my fellow Jews? What is happening to us?
Lubavitch is not about Mikvaos. THIS issue is not about Mikvaos. It’s about getting rid of a bunch of dangerous lunatics who are borderline(?) apikorsim who seem to confuse the Rebbe with….
These are people who “see” the Rebbe walking through a shvill they impose upon the masses in 770 every Shabbos & Yom Tov (maybe the rest of the week?) They’re the crazy people who threaten physical harm to anyone who argues. Sometimes they carry out their threats. They’re the ones who wave flags, wear pins, decorated yarmulkes, hats, even Talleisim.
bottom line: they are INSANE.
Normal Lubavitchers accept Gimmel Tammuz, albeit with great pain, as they day of the Petirah of our Nasi Hador. That is a fact. And to most Lubavitchers, myself included, the Rebbe is the Nasi Hador. It’s the duty of every Chassid to believe his Rebbe is the leader of his generation. My Rebbe is that to me. That’s my personal belief & I have absolutely no problem accepting anyone else’s point of view with the same respect I hope they’ll give me.
Meanwhile, back to 770 Rabbis Krinsky, Shemtov & Aguch (Agudas Chassidei Chabad) were entrusted by the Rebbe with maintaing normal business operations, including governance & responsibility over 770 Eastern Parkway, Lubavitch World Headquarters. But the Taliban Tsfatim camee in & physically overran the Shul. I haven’t been there in 14 years, since Gimmel Tammuz.
To all those nut jobs out there…THE REBBE IS B’GUF IN QUEENS. But his teachings LIVE ON. So to me, my Rebbe is still here…in every Sichoh, Maamer, letter etc that we study, in the acts of Gemilas Chassidim, Ahavas Yisroel & Shlichus that we all can, should, and do carry out.
I hope that clarifies a bit of the situation. Please don’t judge the hundreds of thousands want to follow geniuine Lubavitcher Minhagim in the right way by the actions of hundreds of idiots who never saw the Rebbe & learn from imaginary texts & make things up as they go along.
It’s Ois Shabbos here, so a gut Voch!
to 9:54 then 11:32
He replied, “WE do not use the Bor al Gabbai Bor”
He didnt say its not kosher, he said, in other words, its not our minhag so dont use it (even bedieved) and i have nothing with that just dont go bashing other people who dont hold of your minhagim.
chabad has its minhagim and you have yours.
otherwise you’re a hypocrite.
can someone tell me what is a rebbe
who someone hu learnt the hoel gemora a dozen times.someone hu has 50.000 chaidim. what a holy man
someone hu smart….no thets not what a rebbe is. i will tell you what a real rebbe is.what a real tzatik is..
someone hu loves every yid like himself,someone hu is humbel,someone hu give over his hoel life for other peaple,yes and
if you want to know hu a real a ztatik is …someone like the lubavither rebbe and besids all of the above he was also a talmit chacham…. hu proformt 100ts of mercals,……..thet indeed is a real rebbe
The lawyers won this case and every case that Yidden go to court and pay millions win in fees.
Someone who is not in Lubavitch will never ever understand how Lubavicth works.
770 belongs to all chassidim not Krinsky or ShemTov.
Aguch is an organization which is for all chabad chassidim.
When you have a judge who is unter gekoft as this judge was. Many important documents and what the Rebbe says were purposely left out. So the judge says the case is a landlord tenant case which it is not.
IT’s not just NYC water – how about not sleeping in the Sukkah because a past Lubavitcher Rebbe was mitztaer from the biting Eastern-European cold.
What about intentionally destroying (via various methods) any other, even non-competing, kiruv organization in their town even if they, lubavitch, came to that town AFTER the other organization did?
As for “kiruv”, I understand many rabbanim did not and do not approve of Lubavitch’s methods, so I don’t know why everyone has to say, “Yeah, I’ll give them their great kiruv, but…”
Just as a very small example, when a town wants Chabad to stage their menora lighting in a certain spot a few feet from where they graciously allowed it in previous years, to avoid certain legal issues for the town, and Chabad sues them in secular court to light it, instead, in the original location, is a terrible chutzpah and Chilul Hashem, IMHO.
I also heard of honest, reliable, learned rabbonim who told people to use the bor min hatzad.
I noticed something else. Someone said that Chabad shluchim ask shailos, but they ask within the Chabad organization. The answers they get are the heterim they knew they would get.
Like, well, maybe he drove here on Shabbos, but since he came to shul, we can “assume” he did teshuva.
The problem with that “Assumption” is the following: I can maybe buy that argument the first time. But if the man drives to shul and drives home again, and has been doing that weekly for years, and has had numerous people in the congregation, take their time to lovingly and thoroughly explain why he should not do it, often two at a time sit him down and talk to him, then how can one make that assumption.
He has been educated, and warned of the severity of the consequences of violating the Shabbos, explained that it is a capitol crime, and he persists, saying, “Listen, I will never be Shomer Shabbos.”
Now what heter do we have after this remark?!?!
Maybe he can’t be counted even for a minyan?! But the Chabad shaliach gives him aliyas and will have the chazan begin when he is the 10th.
1:19
Your reply shows you to be a typical Luvatcher Why?
You fell right in with the Lubavitcher method of saying that anyone who does not agree is an Ahm Haaretz or has hate. Can other poskim just not agree?
——-
And, for 9:12
We are all familiar with that. In fact there was a paper going around Chabad with all that.
One thing that has me confused. The Helmetzer Rov ZT’L was considered one of the biggest authorities in Mikvaos of the 20th Century. He was so bothered by the Lubavitcher Bor al Gabai Bor mikva, that he asked almost every major posek around for feedback.
And, when you read those teshuvos, you will see much of what you wrote, but often following the statement that want to be machmir, but they use all those arguments to allow the mikva because there are so many already around the world.
There is a famous teshuva from HaGoan Rav Shmuel Halevi Wozner, often quoted to defend the Bor al Gabai Bor Mikvah. But when you read his teshuvos carefully, he clearly states that if it is possible, it is best to fix it and add a bor min hatzad.
First he says he wants to be machmir, and recommends building it ONLY bor min hatzad.
Then he discussed the fact that there are so many in existence.
Then, he relates almost the entire pillpul you give. He then says that one should not stop people from using these mikvaos. That is not the same as being matir! That is a very B’Dayeved type of heter.
Then he goes on to say to fix it if possible.
There are many rabbonim who say that since if the mikvah is not kosher, it is such a chumradike avaira … one of the worsts… that “as long as there are other mikvaos available, use them”
When I got married my rov, whose name I will not mention since some people here will automatically attack him, though he was one of the gedolai hador who recently was niftar.
But, before he consented to be mesader Kedushin, he asked me plainly, “What kind of mikva do you have near you?”
I told him there is a Bor al Gabai Bor Chabad mikva very close by, certainly within walking distance.
His reply was, “How far to a Bor Min Hatzad with a good hashgacha?”
I told him that would be almost an hour away.
He said, then I prefer that you go there. Can you make me the commitment to drive your rebbitzin to that mikvah?
I said, Sure, but what about Friday night?
He replied, “Wait until Motzoai Shabbos!!!!”
This was shocking to me.
By the way, he was NOT an anti-Lubavitcher person, and in fact had a Tania together with a bunch of other seforim on his table while we spoke.
So, I asked him outright, “Does the Rov say that the Chabad Mikvaos are not kosher?”
He replied, “WE do not use the Bor al Gabbai Bor”
By the way, he was a Gaon, and a Rov that big rabbonim and Rebbes called in to consult on many of the Williamsburg mikvaos.
If you knew this man, he did not have a drop of blood with hatred in him for anyone. He sometimes disagreed with a shita, or an hashkafa, and sometimes strongly, but never with anger at the people, only at the inyan or the action.
So, he did not say they were not kosher, but he did make me agree to use a different mikvah before being maskim to sidur kiddushin!
So Mr. 11:47 was not crazy. There are rabbonim who today, knowing all too well everything everyone has said about them, still prefer the bor min hatzad.
The real issue in Chabad
The real issue in Chabad-Lubavitch is the issue of the Rebbes Tzavah (will)
The Rebbe left a will, in it stating who should run the main organizations in lubavitch – ,”aguch” “merkos” and Machne Israel”
Rabbi Krinsky and Shemtove are not mentioned at all in the will in regard to “Aguch” or “Merkos”
When the time came to look at the will, Rabbi Krinsky was asked if can produce his copy of the will – to which he responded _ I “misplaced” it
At that point, Rabbi Krinsky and Shemtov both forced control over Merkos and Aguch and they we both caled to a Din Torah, to which they never came,with all kinds of dffrent excuses – after a period of time – the Bais Din of Crown Heights gave out a “Lo Tzaisa” against them which stands till this present day – over 10 years.
Obviously, they dont want to show the Tzavah beacuse with it they become “no one special” and cant control the world
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Mashisim and so on – this is simply = “control of Luabvitch”
This is the core of the Problem in Lubavitch, covered up by Issues as “mesichistim” Gaboyim” “shul” etc etc etc,
Untill The Rebbes Will will not be taken care of, fighting unfortunately will continue
It is time that whoever cares and loves the Rebbe, to stand up for the Rebbes will – it is the minimum we can do for the Rebbe now!!
1:39 AM ??? I did not comment about the Lubabitch Mikvaos. I just said that Misnagdim hate Chasidim (real Chasidim) not Chabad or Lubabitch. I use Chabad Mikvaos when I travel in Hong Kong. I ate in their restaurant and davened in their shul in Bangkok. However when it comes to being Chasidish, I have my doubts. When I hear 1010 WINS calling them Chasidish I have to laugh. They have no Manhig or Rebbe. They do good work around the world but thats where it ends. They are into Kiruv, but only when the persons involved play hard to get. I know I’m rambling, and this is one long run-on sentence, but thats my opinion.
Anon 11:47,
I liked your post but would like to point out that only people who follow the Divrei Chaim (Tzanz) in all protim should care about bor-al-gabei bor.
Rav Shachter summs it up best:
The Teshuvot Divrei Chaim (2:88), in a celebrated responsum, criticizes this approach {ie. bor-algabei-bor}. He cites the Mishna (Taharot 8:9) that states “Katafres Eino Chibbur,” water that is flowing along a slope into a Mikva is not considered to be attached to the Mikva. The Divrei Chaim argues that this rule teaches that waters are considered to be Halachically combined only if they lay side-by-side but not one above the other.
Many Poskim defended the Mikva of Rav Shalom Ber from the criticism of the Divrei Chaim. The Gulot Aliyot (a major work on the Halachot of Mikva), section four, argues that the rule of Katafress Eino Chibbur applies only when the water is flowing on a slope and not when the two pools are stationary. Rav Shlomo Ganzfried (the author of the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch who wrote an authoritative work on Hilchot Mikvaot entitled Lechem Vesimlah) argues (Simlah 98) that Katafress Eino Chibbur does not apply when the two pools that are located one above the other are connected deliberately. The Pnai Yehoshua (in his commentary to Gittin 16a) argues that Katafress Eino Chibbur does not apply when the water that connects the two Mikvaot are from the Mikvaot themselves (as opposed to an external source). Teshuvot Chatam Sofer (Y.D.96) argues that this rule does not apply if there is abundant water that connects the two Mikvaot.
Moreover, it seems that even the Divrei Chaim would accept the Lubavitch Mikva as they are commonly constructed. First, the Divrei Chaim writes (in his introduction to Hilchot Mikvaot number five) that we do not say Katafress Eino Chibbur when the water has had its status as Mayim Sheuvim mitigated to a Rabbinic level disqualification by the process of Hamshacha (a process that we described at length in an earlier issue). In fact, the Rash in his commentary to the Mishna (Mikvaot 6:8) states that we do not say Katafress Eino Chibbur if the water is disqualified only on a Rabbinic level. Recall that the Hamshacha process is a standard feature of most Mikvaot today.
Furthermore, when the two Mikvaot lie directly upon each other with only the separation of a floor, even the Divrei Chaim seems to agree that the Mikva is Kosher. This is because in this situation we do not have two Mikvaot that need to be connected. Rather, we regard the two pools conceptually as one large pool. Indeed, four major authorities on Hilchot Mikvaot accept this type of Mikva without qualification – Rav Meir Arik (Teshuvot Imrei Yosher 2:73), Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Y.D. 3:65) the Satmar Rav (Teshuvot Divrei Yoel Y.D. 80), and Dayan Weisz (Teshuvot Minchat Yitzchak 2:92). In practice, Lubavitch Mikvaot are created in this manner.
But I do want to point out that perhaps the reason people feel the need to only go to a mikva that has bor-mitzad-bor is thats the way mikvos have been built since the times of the gamara. (See mikvos that have been found in Masada etc..)
to 9:54
we heard all your “taynos” before, nothing new.
i dont know who you are, so i have to assume, you never honored the Rebbe at all you just wright that to get credibility, you are just a regular mesnagid!
as i said nothing new!
as a so called mishechist, i know it is hard understand why we hold the Rebbe is moshiach.
but i am sure that if someone wants to understand not just attack, and learns the issue, and studies the moshiach topic in general, he will find that there are many halochic sources to such a belief.
9:54, u are a sicko, while I agree most lubabs are nuts, no real posek has a problem with chabad mikvaos. Btw, sincere shluchim ask shailos what to do in sticky situations, such as ignorant jews driving to shul on shabbos. Go back to fakewood and try to learn your artscroll gemoroh
Stop hacking a chainik. Bor al gabei bor is the biggest hiddur, and there isn’t any sha’ala about it. This “problem” is simply made up, without any basis whatsoever. Any so-called “posek” who “doesn’t hold by it” reveals that either he’s a hater and a liar, or he’s stam an amhoretz in this subject and is quoting a hater and liar.
Baruch hashem one less building to the lubavitcher people
9:54
Lubavitch had redefined Misnagdim, and any frum person who is not Lubavitch.
Though I am thrilled for Lubavitch, that the overly weird meshichistim may have lost, and Lubavitch may have a chance of returning to normalcy, I have another fear.
Even among some of the “non-meshichistim” there are many who are “closet meshichistim” ….
plus there are still many among them who are secretly passing out lists of signatures that the Rebbe was not only Moshiach, but also a Novi (Prophet), and that he so claimed, or hinted at.
Unfortunately, the line between the meshichistim and the non-meshichistim has been blurred.
Also there are a few sichas and/or maamorim of the Rebbe ZT”L that are being interpreted today in ways that have some strong shades of Kefira!
Plus, many good Chabad people have elevated their Rebbe out of “Humanhood” in the following way. They are saying that he was such a big tzadik that he was INCAPABLE of making an error, even in his last few years, up to the day of his histalkus.
They are taking a few lines from Shas and using them to justify this based upon the statement of his tzidkus. Though I undertand their “drasha” I believe it is a falacious use of gemara.
All the other gedolim, Roshei Yeshiva, Rabbonim and Rebbes admit their fallibility. Rav Moshe’s son said that his father drank treif water. He said that they did not know at the time about the problem with the NY water, but that it is certainly 100% forbidden to drink or cook with.
When asked, “But your father drank it!” He replied, “Yes, he did not know.”
That is honest. He was certainly just as big tzadik as the holy Lubavitcher Rebbe, ZT”L
But, Lubavitchers are saying that anything the Rebbe said or did years ago still applies today, no matter what the rest of the world discovers. What the rest of the world discovers must be wrong, since “The Rebbe would not have drank that water if it were forbidden.”
Though they claim a mokor for this, and I have debated it over and over with them, it is a form of elevating their Rebbe above the status of a human.
Also, Their obnoxious claim of his being the Nasi Hador of his generation and even today.
That clearly is falacious, as the majority of Rabbonim of his dor certainly did NOT look to him as their Nasi. I respected the Lubavitcher Rebbe, ZT”L, but he was never MY Nasi.
The other way they are trashing their own Rebbe’s name is that they are calling all other Chassidim, NOT REAL Chassidim. Only Lubavitch is “Real” to them. Though some of them will give Stolin and Brelev a little window. But the rest of our glorious chassidim in Williamburg, are all “Just Kihilos” and not real chassidim.
Every time I hear this I want to throw up. To me those statements invalidate their own claim to be real Chassidim. No true follower of the Baal Shem Tov would marginalize the rest of the Chassidim in that way.
It is not “Learning Chassidus” as Lubovitchers see it, that makes one a Chossid. It is practicing the Chesed and Ahavas Yisroel for all the other Chareidim that does it.”
Real Chassidim would never say they are the only Chassidim.
Real Chassidim would never say “Yimach Shmo” about a famous, very well respected Rosh Yeshiva who was niftar (because he ticked off their Rebbe)
Yes, Chabad’s outreach is unmatched. I am tired of hearing that as the come back for all their faults. The same with their opening shuls around the world and building mikvaos around the world. Those are all wonderful, but even those very acts are flawed with the Lubavitch narrow vision.
Most Chabad shuls that they have around the world use so many Koolos in their congregation, that many chariedim do not feel comfortable.
Some have very questionable mechitzas, and almost all call up people who drive to shul for aliyas.
Most of them have kidush after daveing, but the men and women are not mixed, a real taaruvos. Women reaching between two men, and vice versa.
And, though they take money from all available sources to build those mikvaos, they then build a Chabad bor al gabai bor mikva which many people do not hold from. But they do not tell them. They tell them it is a 100% kosher mikvah. And it is for a Lubavitcher, since that is the way the paskin.
But it is not acceptable for women according to some other poskim.
People move in to a lubavitcher community being happy to be near a mikva, then find out they need to drive an hour to a mikvah their rabbonim approve of.
When I ask why they do not simply use both way, a bor min hatzad along with the bor al gabai bor, I am told, “That would imply that our rebbes are wrong, so we could never do that. It’s Kosher, It’s Kosher, stop complaining!”
What sickens me is everyday when i go to court all i see is frum jews in the hallways and in front of judges. As a lawyer I feel sickened and embarassed by the chillul hashem.Can we stop fighting over everything just for 24 hours?
Now as painful as it may be, it is time to choose a new manhig
——–
Where can I apply?
Misnagdim are against Chasidim, not Lubabitch.
Ah yes, true, in Lubavitch a Manhig emerged. However a Manhig can only emerge if there are enough people who want to be followers.
So it is not the question: Who will be the Manhig; it is much the question: Who will be the chassidim.
Looks like most all Lubavichers (that I know) aren’t interested in a leader, and they have spun some very interesting theologies why not.
any chasiddim with out a monig is like a chiken w/o a head
to 8:37 pm.
Unlike other chasidic sects, a manhig was NEVER appointed in Lubavitch.
Throughout the years a Rebbe always emerged from within.
Merely appointing a ‘manhig” (a la Satmar, Bobov, etc.) will only fracture the movement and take energy away from the wonderful worldwide work the Chabad juggernaut is doing today.
Now as painful as it may be, it is time to choose a new manhig
BH its a big day for chabad, im very happy for you and the Rebbe ZT”L as he built a movement to se it getting destoryed by a few troublemakers.
and just like in the satmar case, aguch and merkos will win, since they ae legal owners of the properties
Finnaly now Lubavitch can get rid of the Moshiacistem troublemakers.
Not yet. They have 60 days in which to appeal, and you can be sure they’ll file on day 60. Then the appeal will take at least a year, and who knows what will be the outcome. This could still drag on for years. In the meantime nothing will change.
Boruch Shepotrani!!!!!!!
I am not Lubavitch & was repulsed ( as is all of Klal Yisroel) at the lunatic Meschichistim who damaged Lubavitch’s reputation immesurably by their kefira & nonsense.
Let’s hope they do Teshuva or at least fade into oblivion.
Finnaly now Lubavitch can get rid of the Moshiacistem troublemakers. It’s not only a victory for Lubavitch but for the entire Kllal Yisroel!
Agush represents the normal non meshichistim
CLI is the meshichistim
To Brooklynwolf,
Its very simple!
Today we, chabad, has had a big victory.
The fight is over the control of 770 which until day by default has been under the so called ‘gaboim’ who support the Tzfati/Meshichists faction (ex-Chabadniks who find it there obligation to make a desecration out of Chabd and the Rebbe).
Merkos is the institution which runs Lubavitch according to the instructions of the Rebbe.
To all the anti-chabad people out there:
To ‘enclothe’ your hate toards Chabad in the Moshiach issue. You hated us 40 years ago and you will always hate us until Moshiach comes.
While i disapprove and realy am against the Tzfatis/Meshichist i dont approve of misnagdim using this as an excuse as if this is their problem with Lubavitch.
CLI represent noting they are the gaybis
They ( mushchisten) will win on appeal , they will claim it to be a religous matter and like in satmar , the court will say we can not decide the case
For the non-Chabad here and those who have not been following this closely, can someone please sort out the players?
Who does the Agudah represent? Who does CLI represent?
The Wolf
Thank G-d! This will be the first real positive step to get the JFJ/Meshichists out of Crown Heights and restore Lubavitch to it’s once upon a time high stature in Chassidus. There is a huge difference between genuine Kiruv, social service outreach, and cult-like idol worship of a man-made false god. My great uncles were the Kellners ZT’L of 709 Eastern Parkway, and what attracted them to Lubavitch following fighting in Guam in World War II, and then for the Irgun in 1947 was Lubavitch’s blind dedication to Torah, Avodah, and Gemilas Chasodim. It was totally Lishmah then, and hopefully now Lubavitch/Chabad can reclaim that glory; doing good works to spread the Glory of Hashem, and not any ulterior motive. Bravo!