JERUSALEM (VINnews) — It was recently announced in a secular newspaper that a new yeshiva will be opening in Beit Shemesh headed by Rabbi Dovid Leibel which will incorporate secular studies outside the yeshiva in an Open University format.
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On Monday, Rabbi Dov Landau, who currently heads the Council Of Torah Sages, wrote a sharp letter criticizing the initiative. The letter was published in Yated Neeman and signed by all of the members of the council except for Rabbi Baruch Mordechai Ezrachi, who is currently hospitalized in serious condition with respiratory problems.
Rabbi Landau heard about the initiative during a trip to the US from a Rosh Yeshiva who explained to him the details and warned of the dangers in establishing such an institution. Rabbi Landau requested that his letter be signed by the other Gedolim and published in Yated Neeman.
The letter was co-signed by Rabbi Meir Zvi Bergman, Rabbi Baruch Dov Povarski, Rabbi Moshe Hillel Hirsch, Rabbi Yitzchak Zilberstein and Rabbi Zvi Drabkin.
The letter states that “Torah study has always been clean and unsullied by any trace of mixing with other disciplines, and our rabbis devoted themselves and fought holy wars against any plans to mix even the slightest amount of other studies within the walls of the Torah fortresses and holy yeshivos.
“However we have now heard that people are planning to establish an institution called a yeshiva gedolah which mixes the holy and the profane, Heaven forfend, in the city of Beit Shemesh.
“It is our duty to warn against this and to raise a huge storm to alert the Yere’ei Hashem wherever they are that they should not send their children and disciples to this place or give them any support G-d forbid.
“Happy is he who can uproot this scourge before it begins, and will keep the House of Israel faithful to Hashem and his Torah free of any aspects of this iniquitous culture, remaining sanctified to Torah study, keeping Mitzvos and following the Torah path.”
Not sure what the point of this kol koreh is.
Those boys who don’t want to travel to America to panhandle for a living, will end up going to these types of mosdos anyway. It’s just a matter of time. This will only lessen Gedolim’s authority.
In America, many mainstream batai medrash have some boys going to college in the afternoon. From personal experience, I know many erlicheh yungerleit who are also tamidei chachamim that did it. They are lawyers, dentists, PAs, doctors, accountants, etc… Why can’t this be done in E”Y?
the reason why Lakewood is having such a big problem with their community is for the reason above, kids cannot take a full day of learning, its just too much even for an adult, I think its important for people to have the balance, not everyone is able to handle this schedule and what happens when a kid is not as good as the other kids, then they get kicked out when they put their heads down, but if theres English subjects at least they feel good in that part of their day. in New York and other places yeshivas had English in the afternoon and many people grew up healthy in their mind whether it was in torah or in secular. even if they decided to go to work they didn’t hate Judaism on the contrary they were koveah itim and were connected to their yeshiva. with all due respect to the gadol I don’t understand how you can put everyone in a box, when dealing with a community of many different people
Please have these Rabbis meet patents at Kesher Nafshi and OTD kids before blocking the yeshiva. Boys who don’t have a yeshiva should have a yeshiva where they are accepted instead of going to the streets.
There are a few such yeshivas already in Israel that are very successful.
Down to 6 comments, from at least 82 previous comments. You should at least be honest about your policies. Don’t pretend you’re an open forum when you’re obviously not.
Rabbi Samson Rafael Hirsch said:
“Rabbi Hirsch’s positive view of the study of secular subjects was not limited to science and history.”
SOURCE: Rabbi Samson Rafael Hirsch by Rabbi Eliyahu Meir Klugman (chapter 17, pages 204 to 205), 1996 CE, ArtScroll History Series, Brooklyn NY 11232
===================================
Rabbi Nosson Tzvi Finkel said:
“I am not against secular knowledge as such,
where there is no question of apikorsus.
It is the same as materiel wealth; it is wonderful to possess.
Problems only arise when one comes to believe that riches or secular knowledge makes one into a superior person.”
SOURCE: Remembering Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky by Rabbi Nisson Wolpin, Jewish Observer magazine, May 1986, page 21
===================================
Rabbi Mordechai Gifter said:
“We teach general studies, and they should be studied properly.
One should try to excel at whatever he does.”
SOURCE: Rav Gifter: The Vision Fire and Impact of an American Born Gadol (chapter 23, page 288) by Rabbi Yechiel Spero, June 2011, Mesorah Publications, ISBN-10: 1422610977 ISBN #: 9781422610978
===================================
Rabbi Avrohom (HaKohen) Pam ZL ZYA and Rabbi Yisroel (HaLevi) Belsky ZL ZYA were both math teachers, and therefore must have experienced secular education.
Many years ago, probably in the 1990s, Rabbi Yisroel Belsky ZL ZYA was quoted by The Flatbush Jewish Journal as saying that there should be more math education for yeshivah students.
I live in Israel. My take on this, for what its worth, is that he is NOT against becoming a doctor or lawyer. He is NOT coming out against earning a living. He is saying that a Yeshiva needs to be Torah-only. You can go to university at night or leave yeashiva and go to university. But not in yeshiva. A yeshiva represents total immersion in Torah, and he is saying that it must not be tampered with. Thats all.
“Torah study has always been clean and unsullied by any trace of mixing with other disciplines, and our rabbis devoted themselves and fought holy wars against any plans to mix even the slightest amount of other studies within the walls of the Torah fortresses and holy yeshivos.”
That is a false statement.
Rav Landua years ago opposed R Shloma Zalman z”l bec he was a talmud of R Kook.
He also opposed R Shach when degel was founded. If you look into his history he is a well known kanoi.
This kind of ban doesn’t surprise me nor does it convince me that its main stream.
Really then why am I bothered every morning by those that don’t get edumacated while I’m davening
Sorry don’t buy what your saying
Sheitel bans, Simcha guideline bans ,and now a Yeshiva ban?
These people live in their ivory towers, divorced from reality,
Can we respond with a “ban” on the dozens of collectors that show up in shul every morning, each armed with his own sob story and a portable credit card machine?
Or perhaps, have them camp out on Rabbi Landau’s doorstep, waiting for a handout from the fellow that prohibits them from getting an education to be able to support themselves.
Rabbi Dov Landau is certainly entitled to express his position and withhold his endorsement of this type of yeshiva arrangement. However he chose to use very strong words threatening the funding of this much needed yeshiva and condemning it with most hateful and inappropriate words for any respectable person and so much more so for a Torah scholar. He also says things that are simply not true. And mind you he is speaking in the most derogatory terms about the hard work of other Rabbanim and Torah scholars. He is taking about holy wars and a huge storm against the derech of other eirliche yiddin and Rabbanim. Is it any wonder that there would be a huge outcry against these statements?! Is he comparing talmeidi chochomim who are proponents of this approach to the Haskalah movement?! Is it okay to insinuate that other Rabbanim are not yirah shamayim because they have a different derech?! While I do agree that it is appropriate to remain respectful, I do understand the anger that these statements provoked. I hope that we can maintain a strong but respectful response.
You and R’ Shamshon Rafael Hirsch both, fighting the same battle. The difference is that you’d say that he’s off the derech because of his philosophy of Torah Im Derech Eretz….
I don’t think it’s fair for anyone to criticizing this Kol korai. First of all America is very different the Israel. About 20 years ago I was at a TU convention. During a Q&A with Harav A.L. Shtienman ztz”l someone asked if a rebbi should play ball with his Talmidim Harav Shtienman said “No” And after the session there was a big uproar about that answer. Most felt it was even inappropriate to ask an Eretz Yisroel Godal such a question. Second, and more important who is Rabbi Dovid Leibel? Does he have any gedolim backing him? What’s his goal for this yeshiva? Is trying to be a Ponevitz, Slobadka, Itri, type yeshiva with secular studies or is trying to be a Level 2 yeshiva Many unanswered questions
& when the majority of Israel is Charedi who is going to serve if not “We”
Right on! Let the children remain ignorant!
There is obviously no point in defending the Gedolim in such a forum, however I’ll say this: I’ll take the word of the Gedolim vs any of the comments here anyday. Whoever hasn’t known a Gadol or studied one carfully has absolutely no idea about the darkness he/she lives in. The Gedolim have the most sophisticated minds in mankind and Klal Yisroel has survived spiritually until now on their shoulders only. Anyone just outside their framework eventually detaches themselves from Yiddishkeit in just a few generations.
I wrote something similar, and someone decided to take it off of VIN website. what a disgrace for this website, unfortunately what you are saying is the truth and the gedolim haven’t yet found a balanced solution
Rabbi Dovid Leibel deserves our praise. The issue should not be about the importance/danger of a secular curriculum. But rather, an acknowledgement that not all kids are cut out to learn Torah all day. Some kids just wasn’t a regular, balanced upbringing, combining religion, secular studies and physical activity. The choice should not be between a full on religious education and an institution for OTD kids (those that struggle with the mainstream) We MUST recognize the needs of what I call ‘The Forgotten Middle’
Klal Yisrael’s mesorah has always been to keep yeshivos as 100% Torah. The gedolim in chutz laaretz seem to have allowed the yeshivos there to include some secular studies, but the gedolim in Eretz Yisrael never agreed to allow this break from the mesorah.
The solution, for those who live in E”Y and who also need secular studies, would presumably be to have a separate secular studies program outside the framework of the yeshivos.
Why doesn’t VIN just remove this article or close comments for it. Instead of people commenting and deleting them an hour later?
How come then, that Yated publishes an English language paper ? How did they learn the secular language?
There are plenty of chareidi boys who aren’t cut out for F/T learning, certainly not long term, so they need an education enabling them to get jobs. There’s little info. in this article-is it for high school aged boys, or older? By 18, it’s usually clear to the boys and their parents who wants and needs something else. However, I don’t hear or read about opposition to the existing, few high schools with some secular studies that have been around for a long time. Their graduates vary in terms of shemiras hamitzvos, and some do pursue F/T learning for a few years before attending university. You are absolutely right that one size fits few, boys who study a trade or profession need chizuk, as do their intelligent parents when they make the decision for an alternate route. The chareidi community needs doctors, lawyers, other professionals and businessmen other than contractors. I hope it will change. Few families that don’t have tough decisions to make, even if it costs them in the social realm.
Any suggestions as to what parents are to do with their 16-year-olds who want to be in the proposed yeshiva?
Torah chigri saak.
*eats popcorn*
You sound very angry. Is that Torahdik? Did you learn all that hate and anger in cheder? Just asking…
Could not have said it any better.
So he is calling for a boycott of a (proposed) Jewish business?
The faceless askans who pressure rabbis probably came here to pressure too. Something fishy.
Is VIN finally cracking up?
Plethora of censorship more likely
You spelt two menee cards wryt.
a recipe for kids going otd
I cannot argue with gedolim, but I can question why what is the norm and perfectly acceptable in America is apikursus in Israel.
In Brit Shemesh, it would seem that many American immigrants may want their kids to have a secular education in addition to as Yeshiva education.
Hmm…it may be worth a trip just to ask that shayla. I’m curious to know.
VIN has a cool algorithm, in which they flag certain login emails for review before a comment is posted. If you get blocked, try posting with another email…….
It’s always about money and never about Torah. Early 1900’s in the old yishuv was the same thing……
the reason why Lakewood is having such a big problem with their community is for the reason above, kids cannot take a full day of learning, its just too much even for an adult, I think its important for people to have the balance, not everyone is able to handle this schedule and what happens when a kid is not as good as the other kids, then they get kicked out when they put their heads down, but if theres English subjects at least they feel good in that part of their day. in New York and other places yeshivas had English in the afternoon and many people grew up healthy in their mind whether it was in torah or in secular. even if they decided to go to work they didn’t hate Judaism on the contrary they were koveah itim and were connected to their yeshiva. with all due respect to the gadol I don’t understand how you can put everyone in a box, when dealing with a community of many different people,
Although I agree with much of what you wrote in your post, I must strongly condemn the way you said that Gedolim want to keep us in a cult like society.
How dare you?? Are there different Tohrahdige mehalchim? Certainly. will there be flaws in EVERY system? Most definetly – until moshiach comes. Are we allowed to question/debate/discuss which mihalech works better for us? Again, of course we can. And, we can even choose that mehalech that works best for us.
BUT to say that a Gadol, is trying to “keep us in a cult”, is beyond chutzpahdig. Or, do we only say shivim panim laTorah when it is a mehalech that YOU agree with?
I think your comment is staged. Gib me a brake.
Although I disagree with what you said earlier, it was written with respect, and I almost fully agree with this, your current comment.
I have a secret for you – you CAN go into Gedolim and speak with them. There might be very few who will not speak to a women, but Gedolim through all generations have seen all people, women included. And they still do.
Some advise: if you do go to speak to a Gadol about this (or any other matter) and question their reasoning, do it with respect, and honestly want to hear what they have to say without any preconceived notions that they are wrong. Perhaps what you hear will surprise you.
You constantly talk about yaffed and how detrimental they are, yet when honest parents talk about their concerns it offends you, what do think happens to their kids?
#2080314
משיב חכמים אחור……by not pointing out the obvious truth, WE are the problem! He was literally hosted in America couple weeks ago. No one knew his דעות then?????
Wow, you got one right.
Just wondering who his doctor and dentist are. And where did they learn
Something doesn’t make sense here.
I would just like to understand the issue with certain types of secular education and would the Rabbi be opposed to it.
For example, why would it be a problem, or is it a problem, for Yeshiva students that might have to eventually go out and work to have good math, or grammar and writing skills that will help them and be needed in the kosher workplace.
Maybe that’s what the Yeshiva in question is doing here and not c’v’S teaching real profane studies, or is it?
Does anyone know more details as to what the ‘secular’ studies are that the Yeshiva in question plans/planned to teach?
I for one had saved what I originally wrote and what Educated Archy responded to me and my response. I am posting it again as I think it lends much to this conversation.
I don’t think it’s fair for anyone to criticizing this Kol korai. First of all America is very different the Israel. About 20 years ago I was at a TU convention. During a Q&A with Harav A.L. Shtienman ztz”l someone asked if a rebbi should play ball with his Talmidim Harav Shtienman said “No” And after the session there was a big uproar about that answer. Most felt it was even inappropriate to ask an Eretz Yisroel Godal such a question. Second, and more important who is Rabbi Dovid Leibel? Does he have any gedolim backing him? What’s his goal for this yeshiva? Is trying to be a Ponevitz, Slobadka, Itri, type yeshiva with secular studies or is trying to be a Level 2 yeshiva Many unanswered questions.
Educated Archy
Reply to ah yid
Your second question is a what came first the chicken or the egg. If he is the doghouse, of course he will only get second tier boys. There is an old known issue in israel with boys getting burned out when young. They say its because the syetm is so rigid and most really can’t learn all day. There is no reason why israel should be different than the USA in this. (Or at least the old USA or a top notch school like novominsk.) The facts are the same all over. A 14 year old boy does not have zitsfliesh to learn all day. They will and do get brunt out. Its only mitzoynim who survive.
ah yid
Reply to Educated Archy
I agree with your premise. I will just tell you from my own personal experience. A weak student in learning Gemara will be weak in math and history. However, try, try, try to keep a student especially boys in a yeshiva as long as possible. This is where I fault the yeshivos everything is tests, marks, farhers, Nothing about behaviour, character or midos. Ikeep asking is a 17 year old taking a test to become a rov or dayin? Once a boy leaves the yeshiva there are number of new problems. The biggest is he can’t legally work until he’s 18. 2nd, even if he gets a job it will likely be as an apprentice for someone who knows he’s doing him a favor or behind the counter in some take out. Now we have new problems who are his friends now? Other dropouts and goyim both male and in a store or warehouse females as well. Then if it doesn’t work out or it pitters out he’s stuck at home or on the streets until someone else feels bad for him. The gmara says either a partner or death ( Tanis 23) A boy in a yeshiva makes friends and in a beis Medrish especially in a small yeshiva. he can hopefully develop a lifelong connection to a rebbi.
You’re obsessed with race under whatever name.
There’s something missing about this whole story. There is a yeshiva called Maarava that teaches secular studies and several others like it. They go on to learn in top yeshivos except Ponivitch.
Smartest thing I read in years
Torah ve’Avodah